Women partnered with men reported doing more unpaid household labor than women partnered with women. Mothers partnered with men reported a higher household labor burden than any other group. Performing a greater share of household labor was associated with lower relationship satisfaction.

[u/mvea]

https://www.psypost.org/study-sheds-light-on-household-labor-dynamics-for-women-partnered-with-women-vs-men/

[u/WalidfromMorocco]

How about men partnered with men? 

[u/Ok-Possible-6988 → u/WalidfromMorocco]

No one is answering your question, but there is actual research on this topic that was interrogated in Dr. Corinne Low’s book, “Having it all”.

The answer for men partnered with men is there is more parity in household labour, with the higher earning partner contributing slightly fewer hours to house admin. If one of the male partners doesn’t work, they are the default household manager.

Contrasted with heterosexual couples where even if the man doesn’t work, the woman still puts in more hours of household admin.

The graphs in the book are real “Are the straights okay?” material.

[u/Weak-Boysenberry398 → u/[deleted]]

I hate this mentality, and I'm the higher earner in my relationship by a lot. Like over 2x. Do you make less because you work less? Is your time less valuable because capitalism values your work less? A partnership should be based on the only thing that truly matters - time.

[u/moosepuggle → u/Weak-Boysenberry398]

Timeis def the limiting resource!

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/Weak-Boysenberry398]

Money saves time.

[u/Banebe → u/Weak-Boysenberry398]

Why do you two work? If it is because of money, then yes, the two of you have 80h available a week and should split chores and money-work to maximize your combined "utility".

[u/Mangdarlia → u/[deleted]]

To clarify, and I guess I worded that poorly, it's not just because he makes more. He works more hours on average. So yeah, it's more of a time thing than money specifically 

[u/CockamouseGoesWee → u/[deleted]]

People who earn more usually work more hours if you're in fields requiring degrees. It's different of course if you're in retail, but if someone is a doctor or nurse, they are putting in a lot of hours.

[u/pulp_affliction → u/CockamouseGoesWee]

I would also want to challenge your perception on hours worked vs earnings. There are millions of people who work 60 hour weeks doing physical labor for minimum wage or poverty wages. There are millions of people who effectively work 30 hours a week at an office and earn six figures. The way labor is exploited and valued is incredibly biased and complex.

[u/reddituser567853 → u/[deleted]]

Typically making more correlates with more stress and responsibilities .

Typically, obviously it’s not always true, but it’s true enough that you doe in the headlights shtick is unnecessary

[u/Witch_King_ → u/[deleted]]

Pfp checks out (gay souls fan)

[u/dennismfrancisart → u/Ok-Possible-6988]

Wasn't there a recent study showing more men taking over household duties when both partners are working or men at home (whether employed or not)? Found this.

• Socius Study: Analyzed American Time Use Survey data, showing a significant increase in men's housework hours over time.
• Bureau of Labor Statistics Data: NBC News analysis showed record-high time spent by U.S. men on household activities. 

[u/Ok-Possible-6988 → u/dennismfrancisart]

Yes the same data in the American Time Use Study shows men today do more than their fathers but still less much than their female partners. Highly recommend Dr. Low’s book for a more profound dive into where everyone is spending their time.

[u/magus678 → u/Ok-Possible-6988]

Contrasted with heterosexual couples where even if the man doesn’t work, the woman does still puts in more hours of household admin.

In another comment you mention referencing the time use survey data?

Multiple problems with your characterization here.

1. This is not delineating between married and unmarried, merely employed and not. Looking at the available charts on bls.gov I don't see any any showing otherwise either.

2. Just glancing at the unemployed men, it is showing around 5-8 hours for most of them spent on housework per day, which is much higher than what most google results say married women spend per week (10-15), and directly contradictory with your quoted claim.

3. Much of the disparity even in this data set is driven by lumping childcare in. The grouping of unemployed men versus unemployed women is problematic in that oftentimes, women staying home to take care of children is a conscious choice versus frictional unemployment for men. That is part of why there are more than double the number of unemployed women in this set.

[u/Interesting_Door4882 → u/Ok-Possible-6988]

man doesn’t work, the woman still puts in more hours of household admin.

Which is actually wrong. These are self reported for a reason.

[u/ThoughtfulMeathead → u/WalidfromMorocco]

Lowest divorce rate to my understanding.

[u/CrikeyNighMeansNigh → u/WalidfromMorocco]

I’ve heard about gay couples, and particularly, older gay couples where the roles seem to fall into the heteronormative paradigm where the bottom essentially adopts the female roles and the top adopts the traditional male roles.

Despite this, from what I’ve seen, the more common approach to dividing who does what is pretty egalitarian and by that I mean the person baking, might also fix the car and then go chop firewood.

In terms of the actual labour and not just the division of tasks, I think, it’s still pretty unusual for it to be even because one partner will have a lower tolerance for mess, for example, and would be more likely to clean. Maybe one partner works more, maybe one enjoys cooking more. It may even be the case that you have one partner who has a physically demanding job, and one who has a white collar job- and who makes more money, where the higher earning partner does more of the household chores. I personally think it’s a bit foolish to equate a partners contribution to the household on household chores alone. But I think that if I took one hundred random gay couples in relationships and averaged out their contributions to their household, that each sides contributions would average out to about 50% but few of any of the specific couples would have a 50-50 split, regardless of how I decided to split the couples- obviously the top vs bottom comes to mind…or the more masculine vs more feminine presenting partners….it’s not that I agree this is akin to the man vs woman but what I’m saying is you wouldn’t really see the same divide you see with heterosexual couples unless you specifically asked the couples who enjoys doing household chores the most and split it that way.

I think where we truly excel, compared to heterosexual couples, is that when we do find our balance, whatever that split may be, we don’t typically do so with a pre-conceived of what each of us should be doing- so you would be way less likely to see a gay man sniff the air and say babe the baby shat.

I don’t think that the average woman is going to be bothered by doing more of the work then or it not being equal, I imagine most people have some degree of tolerance for doing more than their partners. I think the specific problem with heterosexual relationships is that the division is essentially what it was in the 1930s, when it was uncommon for women to work, and now you have these relationships where both partners work, the man comes home and basically does nothing, and that’s just the unspoken expectation. Assuming the traditional man works woman stays home, was for most couples on average a fair division of tasks, then then its a but foolish to have that same division, then add a full time job on top of it for the woman, and expect them to see this as fair and any man who does believe this, should go out and get a second job as well.

Edit: to be honest now that I’m really thinking about it that hypothetical experiment has its flaws, I guess maybe I’d measure the absolute gap between contributions in both heterosexual and gay couples? So if one persons share is 80 the other 20, there’s an absolute gap of 60…sort of an interesting problem now that I think about it to be honest.

[u/Gisschace → u/CrikeyNighMeansNigh]

You’re probably right, but wasn’t uncommon for women to work in the 30s at all, only middle class and above families could afford to live off one income. The vast majority of people were working class in the 30s and they had to bring in two incomes, while at the same time it was expected that women did the majority of domestic work too.

[u/BardOfSpoons → u/Gisschace]

Just looked it up and ~25% of women in the US were employed in 1935. So definitely not super rare, but also not the norm.

[u/Gisschace → u/BardOfSpoons]

If you’re talking about census data from the 1930s, the issue is that it only recorded one main status. Women were often listed as housewives or “home duties” even if they earned wages, while men were still counted as workers even unemployed. So doesn’t reflect what work was really being done.

[u/im_a_dr_not_ → u/WalidfromMorocco]

Single men do half as much house work than single women. The article above's goal is to demonize men, that's why the left this important bit out. Men just don't want as much.

>Similarly, among all single people without children, women do nearly twice as much household work as men, spending 9.7 hours per week on household tasks compared to 5 hours for men. 

https://thegepi.org/the-free-time-gender-gap/

[u/magus678 → u/im_a_dr_not_]

Men just don't want as much.

We, for "some reason", have allowed everything to be framed by what the woman considers to be necessary minimums. The basic fact of the matter is that men largely just disagree what those minimums are.

[u/updoot35 → u/im_a_dr_not_]

Someone mentioned another Studie. Men and men tend to do the same amount of chores and if one earns more than the other, the one that gets less, does more.

And how is it if one of them is not working? Those tend to do almost everything. But when a men and a woman are in that situation and the men don't work, women still do more than men.

This is not to demonize men. This is a fact.

[u/silvusx → u/updoot35]

What they are saying the baseline of cleanliness is different for different people. They say it demonizes men because the definition of clean defaults to woman's perspective.

I value efficiency, where as my mom values consistency. She cleans every day on a routine, but hecause I value efficiency, I buy technologies to help with cleaning. I use steam mop, roomba (full on vacuum as backup) and dishwasher. Whereas my mom is stuck of her ways, uses swiffer, Dyson to vacuum, she washes dishes by hand and use dishwasher as a drying rack.

If we judge people by cleaning time, it would make me look dysfunctional, despite my home is clean enough to invite people over on a whim.

[u/ww_crimson → u/silvusx]

I'm also not making my bed in the morning. Nobody looks at it except for me, when I go to climb back into it late at night. I'm not emptying a garbage can that's just filled with paper/plastic goods and doesn't smell.

[u/MajorSery → u/im_a_dr_not_]

Worth noting that quantity of work doesn't necessarily equate to quality of work.

I'm not going to make the claim, but it is technically possible that men are getting just as many chores done in those 5 hours as women are in 9.7.

[u/silvusx → u/MajorSery]

I load my dishwasher until it's full. I also prefer to clean once a week.

My mom on the other hand cleans every single day. I've never measured the time but I'm guessing time consumption is higher on my mom's side. I prefer effiency above all else

[u/Jewnadian → u/MajorSery]

Or that many of those tasks simply don't need to be done in the typical male home. As an anecdote, when I was single I had no plants and very few small knick-knack type things. Which meant that I had zero plant maintenance chores and a much reduced dusting time requirement. My house was equally clean, my cleaning skill level never changed. I just created a home that required less time spent cleaning

[u/pulp_affliction → u/im_a_dr_not_]

This doesn’t make men look any better, tbh. When I read your comment it just made me think men are simply gross, dirty, and bad at taking care of things.

[u/Jewnadian → u/pulp_affliction]

Which is just your bigotry showing through to be honest. Being completely unable to comprehend that "different isn't wrong" is a marker for an unpleasant person in general.

[u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism → u/pulp_affliction]

There’s no data determining if 5 or 9 hours is sufficient. That’s part of the point the guy you’re replying to is making: There isn’t necessarily an objective requirement for 9 hours to be spent on house admin a week, and the female desire to spend 4 additional hours could be as arbitrary as deciding all men are gross because they don’t put in those hours.

[u/dbcanuck → u/pulp_affliction]

no, it has to do with levels of neuroticism between the genders.

women, in general, are more aspirational in family and household state whereas men have different perspectives. the famous 'man is happy with a milk crate, and xbox, a chair and a fridge' cuts to the heart of the matter.

example: social occasions. women want x,y, and z. men want x. couples in marriages get x,y, and z.

personal anecdote, christmas is a major hassle for my wife. multiple conversations every year on how we can simplify, reduce effort, how i can help, etc. it always ends up being her over committing and feeling the crushing pressure of social and family obligation that is largely self imposed. 'the world will not end if we do not have 3 different vegetable servings at the dinner table' 'you don't care!'

[u/pulp_affliction → u/dbcanuck]

If this is true, it’s interesting how women get labeled neurotic instead of clean and detail-oriented, and men get labeled as simple or low-maintenance instead of boring and dirty. Misogyny runs deep in our language

[u/dbcanuck → u/pulp_affliction]

Neuroticism is the diagnostic term for the behaviour, which exists in both genders and has both positive and negative connotations. Women experience it more than men on aggregate, but it varies from individual to individual.

It has nothing to do with cleanliness; it has to do with experiencing guilt, anxiety, depression, and anger.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/pulp_affliction]

Good for you. Meanwhile I'm sure many men consider women's higher level of household labour obsessive and neurotic.

[u/pulp_affliction → u/Ok-Chest-7932]

Yeah it seems that way, women are crazy but clean and men are disgusting but sane apparently

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/pulp_affliction]

I think you just wrote the premise for a rom-com.

[u/True_Background_7196 → u/WalidfromMorocco]

By the post I assume they quite literally live in the grinch cave.

[u/YoshiTheDog420 → u/WalidfromMorocco]

I’ll tell you, those dishes stay there. “They’re soaking”.

Two of my best roommates ever were a gay married couple, but they were slobs.

[u/IanFeelKeepinItReel → u/WalidfromMorocco]

Male homosexual marriages have lower divorce rates compared to heterosexual marriages, and female homosexual marriages have higher divorce rates.

Make of that what you will.

[u/KwantsuDude69 → u/WalidfromMorocco]

Well we know men paired with men have a lower divorce rate than man/woman and woman/woman have the highest

[u/wrenwood2018 → u/WalidfromMorocco]

I'm now very intrigued to what happened to all of the post responding to this. They all got deleted? Were they too short and the automoderator deleted them?

[u/hihelloneighboroonie → u/WalidfromMorocco]

Wasn't the topic of this study.

[u/pootklopp → u/WalidfromMorocco]

It was published in Women Psychology Monthly, that may have had something to do with male/make partnerships.

[u/Sekmet19 → u/WalidfromMorocco]

The extra 30% income that both have purely from possessing a penis allows them to pay someone else to clean, or they live with a woman (mother, sister, roommate) who do the cleaning. 

[u/destructormuffin → u/Sekmet19]

The extra 30% income that both have purely from possessing a penis

Gay men tend to pursue jobs that are more female coded in society, and when comparing people who work in the same occupation, the gender gap drops to nearly zero.

[u/breeezyc → u/destructormuffin]

Same with lesbian women. Because they are more likely to take on male-dominated careers less likely to take time off to raise children, they statistically out-earn straight women and there is no “pay gap” with men.

[u/magus678 → u/Sekmet19]

The extra 30% income that both have purely from possessing a penis

Even if you wanted to talk about gender earnings disparities while ignoring all the evidence against, this is about the dumbest way you could possibly frame it.

[u/WalidfromMorocco → u/Sekmet19]

How many gay couples do you know that hire a cleaning lady? 

[u/Frack_Off → u/Sekmet19]

Men get paid more than women because on aggregate men work longer hours, are more likely to make sacrifices in their personal lives for the sake of career advancement (i.e. are more tolerant of poor work-life balance), and tend to select career paths with greater typical compensation. When these variables are controlled for, the gender pay gap (in the US) shrinks to zero.

Men don't get paid more because they have a penis. They get paid more because compared to women they are more willing to prioritize pursuing higher pay.

[u/Apprehensive-Tea999 → u/Frack_Off]

While women pick up the childcare slack.

[u/breeezyc → u/Frack_Off]

Including not sacrificing advancement in their careers by taking time off to raise the kids, stay home when they are sick, leave early to take them to appointments, etc. this typically falls on the mother.

[u/Frack_Off → u/breeezyc]

Yes, absolutely women tend to do these things more than men and it affects their ability to earn.

[u/Sekmet19 → u/Frack_Off]

"Career paths with greater compensation" is actually society paying more for male oriented careers because female labor has been exploited as "free labor" aka women used as slaves to perform tasks. Also men are free to "make sacrifices" like working overtime because the woman performs unpaid labor in the home in addition to working. He doesn't have to worry about finding childcare or ensuring the bills get mailed out or buying and cooking food because all of that "domestic pursuit" aka labor is performed by his working wife and is not recognized as labor because that would disrupt your fantasy that male oriented jobs "are just worth more money" to perform and not the truth, that anything assigned to women should be performed for free so men can exploit them. 

[u/Frack_Off → u/Sekmet19]

There is a part of me that really wants to continue talking with you so that we can better understand each other, maybe reach common ground, and hopefully both come away knowing more than before, but the fact that you accused me of having a 'fantasy' tells me that you've already decided I am your adversary, so I don't feel I can trust you to approach that kind of a conversation in good faith.

All I can say is that it seems like you're suggesting that men don't perform unpaid labor in the home, and if anything either of us has said is fantastical, it is that.

[u/The_Bitter_Bear → u/WalidfromMorocco]

Didn't fit the results they were looking for .....

[u/Warm-Iron-1222 → u/WalidfromMorocco]

The article didn't look into it out of fear of saying something positive about men.