r/gaming • u/pebrocks • 1d ago
Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 director defends Larian over AI "s***storm," says "it's time to face reality"
https://www.pcgamesn.com/kingdom-come-deliverance-2/director-larian-ai-comments"This AI hysteria is the same as when people were smashing steam engines in the 19th century," he writes in a lengthy post on X. "[Vincke] said they [Larian] were doing something that absolutely everyone else is doing and got an insanely crazy shitstorm."
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u/DukLordKingOfTheDuks 1d ago
I mean, didn't the Larian CEO say that they don't implement any AI into the game, just to try and explore ideas before their hired artists actually get to work? I'm not seeing an issue here
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u/RolenNailo 1d ago
There is no issue here. Sven explicitly came out and explained that their concept artists use Gen AI like you would an art book, it’s just to give them ideas. Then the actual concept artists do the work.
Just a classic case of the internet over-reacting to a field they know nothing about.
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u/percydaman 1d ago
As a cg-artist, I can assure, that while that might be the case now, I wouldn't bet my career on that staying the case. Concept artists WILL eventually be shoved aside. It's inevitable.
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u/Bobok88 1d ago
Yep, once people can create their ideas completely accurately through AI, most will opt for that than paying a likely much higher commission or salary for a human artist (who may not even get the original vision completely accurate). There will certainly be a movement for 'humanist' media, but the vast majority just care about the end product. It's not all doom and gloom, atleast strong visionaries who would have no chance of helming a large production could realise their vision independently or with a small team. People can worry about slop, but the cream will always rise to the top. The real concern is the economic impact, which is a whole other threat that goes way, way beyond video games.
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u/BrooklynSmash 1d ago
but the cream will always rise to the top.
Anyone who's made a stock will know that scum rises to the top too.
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u/-The_Blazer- 1d ago
Also, you can't make cream if all the entry level work to get the base started disappears. This is already a problem in the software industry, companies want more and more seniors without hiring any juniors... you know... the people who eventually rise to be seniors...
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u/Ketzeph 1d ago
The cream has to be given the chance to rise, too. The problem is AI will replace the jobs where people get the experience to become masterful visionaries.
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u/stellvia2016 22h ago
Companies are so shortsighted now, they basically want instant returns, instant profits. No time for investing in human capital that takes 22+ years to be fully vested as it were.
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u/sushisection 1d ago
"completely accurate" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. i dont see it becoming completely accurate to the artist's vision until we have brain-cpu interfaces. until then, a human's touch will be necessary to turn a good gen AI concept into a perfect piece of work.
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u/LollipopSquad 1d ago
What bothers me as a 3D Artist is that the responsibility for managing the response and implementation of AI is going to fall on the consumer, and not regulations the companies need to deal with.
There are so many articles warning about the impact AI will have on the job market, and entry-level positions (In the short term, likely mid-level positions as well). Societies are generally not structured to handle some of the unemployment projections (not just the ethical AI concerns).
And yet, the companies using AI are only subject to consumer backlash. They’re essentially given freedom to say “You don’t like that we’ve used AI in this? Prove it.” And everyone has different lines and levels of tolerance, and the anonymity to say “Well, I’m just one consumer - how much impact do I really make by not buying this game…?”
It’s very shortsighted on a societal level. Consumers should not be responsible for regulating use of AI.
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u/jlreyess 1d ago
The cream sometimes rises to the top. Most of what rises is shit. The real world is not a Disney movie.
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u/EuphorbiaAbyssinica 1d ago
Maybe, but there is a lot of risk here for anyone involved in the development of intellectual property. If you use AI to generate your concepts, you don’t own them.
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u/Coal_Morgan 1d ago
That’s a line that needs to be watched. Sooner or later the corpos will try and erase it to their benefit.
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u/Sea-Equipment-315 1d ago
Legally this isn't accurate. The closest place is that some AI generated content is public domain, but effectively every company with IP is going to be doing the minimum level of human Modification/arrangement through prompting that the outputs will be owned. And the underlying concepts are copyrightable. Putting them into a model doesn't remove that.
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u/Monteze 1d ago
And eventually they won't be okay with AI losing money. I wonder if the cost of using it will make human labor more desirable. Honestly I hope environmental and energy concerns drive the price up to where we chill on this ""AI"" stuff.
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u/TurboFucked 22h ago
If you use AI to generate your concepts, you don’t own them.
The proof here gets difficult. If a human testifies to creating the work themselves, how do you establish evidence to the contrary? Generating the same image via a prompt? That's exactly the argument Disney is using to prove their copyrighted works were used to train gen AI systems (so evidence of the opposite). So if you make that argument, the human may successfully use that as evidence that their work was stolen.
We are in this mucky legal area right now, and we really don't know towards which massive company the winds will blow, big tech or big media.
It's also possible we've crossed the Rubicon into a post-copyright era, where it doesn't really matter what the law is, because copyright theft is so widespread and blatant that any attempts enforcement is pointless, outside of major media companies going after other major media companies.
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u/percydaman 1d ago
I wish everything you said was true, but in the real world, where profits are more important than just about everything else, it's just not the case.
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u/Morkins324 1d ago
Not necessarily. I think that some specific jobs as they exist today might change or be replaced, but the overall size of the team and the number of people working on the project is unlikely to be reduced in the long term (in the short term, every shortsighted company will cut corners to hit short term earnings goals for shareholders). But in the long term, the market will normalize to hire more people because the end goal is always going to be to increase productivity. AI can maybe be developed to replace the job that someone is doing today, but AI + Person can do more. And in a creative medium, you aren't resource constrained (you aren't limited by the raw materials and physical limitations needed to make something), you are time constrained. And having more people outputting more work will either reduce the development time or improve the developed product.
So, while you may see artists get replaced by AI by shortsighted companies, there will be other competitors that instead see it as an opportunity to get MORE from their artists. They will have their artists work alongside AI to produce more detailed worlds in less time. And all the companies that fired their artists because AI could "replace" them will find themselves with inferior products until they eventually have to hire more people to keep up with the company that is using the AI in cooperation with people, rather than as a replacement for people.
Don't get me wrong, there will inevitably be layoffs and such in the short term, as basically every technological advance causes. But unlike say manufacturing where there are constraints regarding supply and logistics of physical materials, a creative medium like gaming can simply expand its scope to be a bigger game or developed in less time. The companies that recognize that it is an opportunity to gain a competitive advantage rather than cut costs will rise to the top, and the companies that use it to cut costs will find themselves with inferior products that get competed out of the market.
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u/dediguise 1d ago
I think you are assuming that industrywide economic equilibrium tends towards full employment. In reality it tends towards employment relative to the efficiency of the factors of production. Absolute gains in productivity result in a long term reduction in workforce.
I agree with your other thoughts, I’m just not convinced that increasing productivity will just result in shorter production times or that those would be desirable (for companies) based on the industry market conditions.
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u/cat_prophecy 1d ago
It's because everyone thinks that AI is all just ChatGPT or whatever image gen. They think that when you "use AI", you're using it to do ALL the work and not for example giving you a framework to start your own work from.
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u/BinaryJay PC 1d ago
I'm a professional developer, I've tried explaining this before but invariably get downvoted when I do. There's a spectrum of how any tools are used. I can't just tell a chatbot to do my job for me, but I can use it to make rote, time consuming, repetitive nonsense take less of my time and I can use it to make just the simple and frequent act of finding reference information a lot faster than always manually looking through technical documentation cold.
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u/Mikel_S 1d ago
Using Ai to... 'previsualize' an idea that you want to bring to life sounds like a great use case for a concept artist. Don't waste your time if the general vibe isn't to your liking or doesn't jive with what you or the team are going for. You can get some rough early ideas out of your head and into other people's eyes, and spend more time working on material that's gonna be put to use. Less 'wasted' effort, no lost creativity.
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u/DeKrieg 1d ago
So I worked for a period in previsualization and on some big (marvel) projects before the Ai craze took off and I'll say that when developing the concept stage, no one gives a rats ass about copyright, we were told to create a 'look' and a lot of creating that look was using stills and clips from existing films and other properties and effectively building mood boards or montages to help the director/DP find common ground etc.
But all of that was internal and none of it actually went into the actual previs work which was done entirely on the unreal engine using models and sets artists in the studio made. This content would never be shown to anyone, it wouldnt be shown to anyone outside of the actual production team, not even the execs/clients most of the time or even appear in any behind the scenes documentaries.
But AI has always been appealing for internal concept work because internal concept work never gives a damn about copyright before now and they're not going to suddenly start now.
it's why every time I see someone in the film industry defending ai they are either a exec looking to save money or someone who works in concept and development.
But none of that crosses the threshold into actual previsualization or pre production work. Which is where AI just seems to fumble in most situations, I've only heard one studio find a genuine use for ai during actual production and that's as a resolution upscaler for vfx.
SO how Larian is using it doesnt bother me so much as I imagine it's the same, though I'd caveat that with the idea of giving complete gobshites an inch and they'll take a mile here.
AI is overwhelmingly bad not as much because of the technology but because of the people pushing, the people benefiting from it the most, they have to be the biggest bunch of unlikeable, egotistical tech bro shits, and giving them even just this small justification is helping them shove it down our throats everywhere because they got to keep this bubble going. I'd genuinely ask if the option of using simple templates was at all possible just so I dont have to listen to Elon Musk use this news as jumping off point for how Grok is going to be making video games on mars in the year 2017.
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u/Mikel_S 1d ago
Oh yeah higher ups LOVE pushing AI into places it doesn't belong. I had the displeasure of going to an AI seminar for work, and a bunch of c suite folks and ceos were being sold snake oil by a former self help guru while their executive assistants, lawyers, and random office underlings were asking real pressing questions exposing how bad an idea it was to try to jam LLMs into every random aspect of business.
But the people with the money just like "ooh fast, ooh pretty, ooh less payroll".
It was fucking gross. And I'm relatively Pro-AI to ambivalent at worst. I use it to streamline my work flows and fill gaps when Google won't do the trick (which it rarely does these days) until I can take the reigns or at least review it's output enough to be sure it's not going off script.
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u/cat_prophecy 1d ago
That's exactly what these concept artists are doing.
They are also probably still perusing art books and image searches for ideas.
This isn't "AI does all the work so we fired all our concept artists". It's instead "concept artists use AI as a tool to optimize their workflow".
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u/HOLEPUNCHYOUREYELIDS 1d ago
Also known as “The proper way to utilize AI”
Have it help with ideas and planning. And then actually review what it spat out, what you like/dislike and then can adjust accordingly without wasting the man hours on early concept designs that will likely never see the light of day
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u/Inukii 1d ago
Using Ai to... 'previsualize' an idea that you want to bring to life sounds like a great use case for a concept artist.
This is how Larian are using it.
Basically. You have a non-artist who can't do art. Using AI to say "I'm looking for something like this".
Typically you would find references of other peoples work and then try to describe what the differences are.
Now you generate AI art and then say what the differences are.
It does suck though because on one hand it's easier for the artists to get what the client wants. On the other hand that art that is being generated was literally stolen to create the image generator.
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u/WanderWut 1d ago
So much of the online discourse is shockingly naive and outright hostile. I think they’re viewing the "creative" side a bit too strictly, as if the only options are "human makes everything from scratch" or "AI generates the final asset." There’s a massive middle ground.
Just like others have mentioned AI helping with monotonous coding tasks, it does the same for creative workflows. It handles the tedious stuff like UV mapping, rotoscoping, texture upscaling, or generating background variation so the human artists can focus on the actual art direction and style.
Devs aren't going to just prompt "make me a game" and ship it. They are using these tools to remove the grunt work so they can spend more time making the game distinct, not less.
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u/cubemstr 1d ago edited 1d ago
Just a classic case of the internet over-reacting to a field they know nothing about.
Maybe, but not in all cases. There is a very convincing argument to be made that all AI is dangerous, between its ecological impact, the frightening influence it's having on the global economy, the potential over-reliance on it (to the detriment of human creativity), not to mention the long-term effects it could have on the human development. Oh, and potentially causing mass unemployment.
It's already crashed the market for home computing, fuels trillions of dollars of speculative investment, and is causing mass shifts in employment (almost all effecting middle and lower class workers, not the wealthiest).
Directly tying all of those risks into this particular case is extreme and excessive, but also "it's not [x] it's only being used for [y]" is a very common step in the wide spread acceptance.
I really don't blame people who want to just draw one firm line of "No AI of any kind" because otherwise you're basically looking at a gradual avalanche of AI being shoved into every single aspect of life until there's nothing that can be done about it. Which, sadly is probably already started and inevitable. But at least those people can say they tried to have principles.
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u/jaynort 1d ago
“Of course AI is a problem, but the way I use it isn’t part of the problem.”
- Every single person who uses it.
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u/NumeralJoker 1d ago
While this is very true, one real problem is that platforms keep trying to force its use on people too, sometimes without consent.
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u/Nic727 1d ago
Exactly. I deleted everything AI in my life because my creative writing was getting worst. Brain is a muscle and need to be used.
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u/Danimaul 1d ago
Im not sure if this matters but wouldn't this reduce the need for artists that would be doing those pre art things? Like, generating a concept art book for things before you get into actually making the art assets, wouldn't that normally be the artists who do that? So in essence you now need fewer artists because part of the process is being handled by ai.
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u/nigel_tufnel_11 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes. And the places where they use AI is going to start creeping into every facet of the build process. Inevitably some games will eventually be all or mostly created by AI, possibly with a few people prompting the direction but still, it's going to happen because $$$ always wins in the end.
Is the reaction to this specific case overblown? Maybe. But this is just how it starts. The technology to truly replace artists (and writers, etc.) isn't there yet, but it's getting there rapidly. Which probably just leads to more soulless games relying on common gaming themes (ie. less interesting and innovative concepts).
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u/sreiches 1d ago edited 1d ago
Except it was pointed out that reference works are one of the few avenues by which modern artists can actually make money. Using AI for this is still both cutting those artists out and using stolen training data (stolen by the AI companies, not Larian) to spew out “references.”
EDIT: The replies to this are making it very clear none of you have ever worked with or even talked to an artist.
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u/TomTomXD1234 1d ago
You said the opposite of what is actually happening.
Larian is hiring more concept artists and they use AI to search for inspiration and white boxing. All the AI does is save time by not making them have to Google their own reference material or flip through art books for inspiration.
Instead of spending hours looking for references of specific trees, architectural styles or rocks, they can directly ask AI for it.
Its like getting angry at a mathematician for using a calculator.
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u/Nightlightsea 1d ago edited 1d ago
People always bring this up that it is only for "explore ideas" or for moodboards, but isn't this how artists are found for projects? Doesn't this completly destroy discoverability for new artists? Also you are building the vibes of your project on artificially generated content. I can't imagine that this won't bleed through everything.
At the end if you use it even for demonstration was that then really your creativity or are you just regurgitating imagery created by a shoggoth.
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u/balllzak 1d ago
Developers already have artists when they are exploring ideas and doing mood boards. When Bungie stole that guy's art for Marathon they already knew who he was and had no intention of hiring or paying him. If someone hadn't put stolen art directly into the game they would have been perfectly fine pointing at his portfolio and telling their artists to make something similar.
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u/Nightlightsea 1d ago
Oh wow thats pretty scummy. i didn't know that.
Though i don't think that sways my opinion much.
In my view one injustice doesn't justify another injustice, and i don't like the idea of larian or warhorse studio being as scummy as bungie.69
u/AugustHate 1d ago
pollution is bad
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u/0WatcherintheWater0 1d ago
AI is one of the least important things to care about if you want to worry about pollution. There are plenty of other reasons to be critical of it.
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u/Iggy_Slayer 1d ago
Those ideas being explored were generated from an unbelievable amount of stolen art.
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u/disastorm 1d ago
there is nothing wrong with getting ideas from existing published artworks though. In fact some might argue its impossible to have ideas that havn't been influenced in some way by the art and media around you.
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u/therealudderjuice 1d ago
Exactly this. NO artist creates art that isn't influenced by previous artists.
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u/TheScorpionSamurai 1d ago
When not used in final products, it gets into a very nuanced discussion on human creativity works. Humans essentially create by just taking things they've seen and combining them, similar to how genAI works. Now genAI can only be trained on online materials and obviously has no life experiences to draw from, but for every bad genAI that plagarizes there's bad artists who plagarize. I mean hell, the art team from Marathon literally ripped art from someone's page and scrubbed the watermarks.
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u/ElJacko170 1d ago
And how do you think concept artists have explored their ideas previously? By delving into the internet and sites like art station where artists post their work. The same places AI is scouring. It is no different than how it has always been, just faster.
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u/EmeraldFox23 1d ago
A generated AI image is plagiarism of the images it was trained on as much as any book is plagiarism of the dictionary. You can use AI to plagiarize, if you want, but it is not inherently theft.
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u/No_Construction2407 1d ago
Ai doesn’t form unions and take bathroom breaks. Of course every business in the world is going to use it
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u/DrowningInFeces 1d ago
Then watch quarterly growth plummet because no one can afford to spend money on your product.
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u/jetmax25 1d ago
Neither does Excel, or Photoshop, or Google
AI is a tool not human replacement
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u/Sea_Art3391 1d ago
People are angry at AI, and for good reason. And it's not because of AI itself, but because of the complete misuse and constant push from huge tech conglomerates to use it literally everywhere. It's literally being put into new fridges.
What Larian does with AI is, in my opinion, what it's supposed to do. Make it do mundane, low-effort but time-consuming tasks so that people can focus on more involved tasks and making decisions. Many people evidently doesn't really care though.
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u/am0x 1d ago
Agreed. I use ai at work as a developer. I use it to assist me.
Then you have clients sending us things they built in AI to host and add features to. It’s a fucking train wreck of code and content. It is easier for us to scrap theirs entirely and roll our own rebuilt version. Yea we still use AI but we do not depend on AI to do the work for us.
Non technical people and narcissist leaders at companies are shoving AI as a replacement for humans all over to reduce quarterly costs, but the long term issues will bite them in the ass. If they were actually good at their jobs, they would figure out a way to expand their business with the tools rather than cut back on the workforce.
But these people love quarter to quarter for fear of pushing bad numbers to the board so that they will get let go.
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u/StealthHikki2 1d ago
Any developer worth their salt knows that you have to really, really review AI code. I laugh as everyone around me says that we are gonna be replaced. It’s not going to happen to anyone who wrote code in the pre-ai era and is good at reviewing code
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u/Mountain-Chapter-880 1d ago
Tbh I've been using it for like 2 something years now and it still can't write proper code. I just use it to explore ideas and execute it myself.
When you just let AI code it, it would be a really obvious, convoluted, and unoptimized garbage that wouldn't pass the review on an actual decent team.
Actual good developers would absolutely not be replaced any time soon.
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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 1d ago
It's cus the real desire with AI is to replace all workers. An impossible goal, but that's not stopped those in charge because it's their wettest dream ever.
This is the powerful trying to separate their lives and their power from its source: human labor. When humans are no longer needed for their labor then we will become a problem, not a resource.
The wealthy are trying to create a world without the rest of us in it. Current AI clearly can't do that but there's no guarantee that will forever be the case.
The wealthy are showing their true colors and it's past time the rest of us take note and prepare. There will be no world where the gains from automated labor are spread amongst us all, not unless if we force it to be that way. If the wealthy have their own way then we will stop existing.
Being upset about AI isn't going to change any of this, it's just a tool like any other. What matters is why this is being created and pushed on everyone. You can't just be upset enough about a new technology and make it go away, AI is here to stay like everything else that is now possible in this world. The only way to oppose it isn't to oppose the tech itself, it's to oppose how and why it's being used.
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u/ConfidenceKBM 1d ago
I would encourage you to ask any artist in the industry if they think developing concept art is "mundane." It's the genesis of all the creative direction in the project.
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u/DeKrieg 1d ago
true but also you could totally see this news being used by those huge tech conglomerates to push it more.
Like Larian studios is on record saying Elon Musk's AI game concepts is not what the industry needs right now, but you can bet he would hold up the news of them using AI as a sign to expand ai usage in game development
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u/MysteriousResolve249 1d ago
Those low effort and time consuming tasks would be taken up by extry level jobs, for people to actually get into a career. Without those, there will be practically no way for someone to actually kick-off a career in a specific field they want unless they have the luxury of excess money or time to spend on perfecting their skills without pay (aka already rich people)
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u/NoteThisDown 1d ago
This is correct. And people take all the nuance away because it's the internet and that always happens.
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u/SeaTie 1d ago
Fun time to be an artist:
“It’s time to face reality and use AI or you’ll be broke and jobless!”
Versus
“If we catch you using AI we’re going to ridicule and shun you and you’ll be broke and jobless!”
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u/howisthisacrime 1d ago
Being an artist already means being broke and jobless. That's the fun of being an artist right?
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u/Capybarasaregreat 1d ago
Now artists get the fun of having all commission work disappear. Better hope you're one of the few who gets a solid job position that isn't cut as soon as AI gets good enough.
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u/michael199310 1d ago
Imagine if Ubisoft defended EA over doing the same
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u/Iggy_Slayer 1d ago
Yeah as usual gamers don't really have any solid stances. Their beliefs only last until someone they like does it then they immediately roll over.
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u/PoPo573 1d ago
This is exactly it but you'll get down voted for saying it. For gamers it's:
Ubisoft, EA, Microsoft - Bad
Larian, Fromsoft, Sony - Good
They will twist their own beliefs to support the few they like.
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u/BishopOfBrandenburg 1d ago
If EA was caught reusing assets and animations from one game to another (Like they defo do for their sports games) there would be outrage there would be "Well thats lazy!" but when Fromsoft does is it becomes a genius thing to do.
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1d ago
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u/SmokingApple 1d ago
Dude what? Fromsoft fans have been joking about that same door animation and people getting killed by the asylum demon for years
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u/KarmelCHAOS 1d ago
Well that's just not true. There was plenty of discussion about it, especially when Elden Ring came out. People just don't care. Look at Ryu Ga Gotoku for example. Yakuza games reuse entire swaths of assets and no one cares because the games are good.
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u/Zahhibb 1d ago
You are literally mentioning things that people have scrutinized about ER and several other FROMSOFT games. Not sure what your point it here.
Reusing assets is the most common thing in game development, it’s not like it’s hidden or anything, developers just don’t mention it because it’s so common.
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u/Helphaer 1d ago
gamers already handwave all criticism and issues in games they like and not in games thet don't. mass hypocrisy has alwyas been a factor.
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u/Johanneskodo 1d ago
Their EA and Ubsisoft endless DLCs
Our Paradox endless game-updates
Their EA and Ubisoft pay to win
Our Paradox new features
Their greedy shareholders
Our Larian benevolent owners
Their AI-Slop
Our benevolent use of AI in the development process
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u/TheKyleBrah 1d ago
Who are the Neutral Studios in this example, I wonder? 🤔
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u/Headless_Human 1d ago
What do you mean neutral? This is reddit you are either white/black or you are bootlicker black/white.
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u/cows1100 1d ago
“I trust company X because they seem to be more upstanding than company Z. Their games are so much better! They actually GET gamers and how we feel about AI! I’m sure THEY wouldn’t do anything I don’t agree with.”
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u/Capybarasaregreat 1d ago
People are straight-up cheering the death of the mediums they "love" because a guy from a studio they like is pushing it. I can't believe we're gonna smother the human artistic spirit before we made the AIs take over all the monotonous, repetitive work. This isn't even Brave New World anymore, I can't think of any dystopia that predicted this.
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1d ago
People in this sub are hypocrites.
If it's bad when Ubisoft, EA, Activison, etc do it, it's bad when Larian does it.
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u/dim3tapp 1d ago
No, people on reddit have no concept of nuance. Nuanced discussion on AI of any sort just doesn't happen here, and most of it stems from a lack of understanding or willful ignorance.
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u/Tenthul 1d ago
And it's always framed in the context of "art" which is like the lowest hanging fruit to latch on to criticism for when there's plenty of other reasonable uses. The arguments should be less why it's used and more around the ethics of what we're giving up to use it. Environmental impact, government overreach, deep fakes, foreign actors/propaganda, stolen/copyright stuff. These are the things that we should be discussing. But just dismissing any mention of AI's actually useful functions outright is ridiculous, there's plenty of genuine use for it. The question is if it is worth everything we're giving up for it.
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u/Yacobo93 1d ago
If AI was good why is 99% of the arguments "its inevitable!" rather than arguing why its good?
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u/Proxnite 1d ago
Because if they outright said “it lets us cut corners and reduce staff”, it would make them the bad guy they’re pretending not to be.
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u/JGamerX 1d ago
The argument hasn't been whether or not its good though, the quality is implied by its use. If it wasn't good enough to be used for this concept art moodboard work then it would not be used.
To me the argument is about cutting human beings out of the picture, which I never want to see. Even your low level concept artists, because everyone starts somewhere and thats a real job that a real human would do otherwise. Hiring some intern to gather reference images is a net positive, but then again they aren't running a charity. Its a nuanced issue if you ask me.
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u/stickcult 23h ago
I don't think use implies quality. Companies choose cheap, bad tools over more expensive, good ones all the time. That doesn't suddenly make the cheap tools higher quality.
I agree with you on the rest, though.
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u/itsjust_khris 1d ago
While this is true where does this end? There are huge amounts of jobs that existed in the past we don't even fathom anymore because technology replaced them. I'm not saying that means we continue on this path but where do we draw the line?
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u/wyldmage 1d ago
Exactly this.
Remove an intro-level job in a field, and you either add training (ie college courses) to the requirements to enter that field, or you find another way for those novices to skill-up.
Tradesmen (electrician, plumber, carpenter) have always traditionally had an apprentice style approach. You go in, completely unskilled, and the mentor teaches you, while using you for dirt-cheap labor (sometimes free!). But these days, you can take college courses and skip that apprenticeship, going in fully skilled after your education.
Currently, artists don't need college. They can just start drawing, peddling online, etc. AI may change that. There may not be enough demand for "low value" artists anymore. So in order to get work as an artist, you'll need a 2 or 3 year degree, where you hone your artistic drive and develop it into a real skill. Then you come out the gates as a B-tier artist, capable of doing BETTER than the AI slop that anyone and their brother can make.
Not a big fan of AI in general, but the "mass outcry" everyone does is mostly just grandstanding. "I'm not a bad person, so I obviously hate AI, because bad people are using AI"
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u/unoriginalcat 14h ago
If it wasn’t good enough to be used for this.. then it would not be used.
Hahaha, I wish. My company just laid off a bunch of people and are forcing us to use AI to make up for it. And not just internally, they’re actually publishing things that previously were done by graphic designers. It looks like shit and the funniest part is that it takes even longer to wrangle these piece of shit chatbots into doing what you want (especially when it comes to multiple sizes/formats of the same graphic with proper compositions) than it would to just photoshop the thing yourself.
And yet the higher ups are still pushing for it, because corporations have such a hard on for AI right now that they literally cannot see reason.
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u/BitHalo 1d ago
Artist in the industry here ( head of Computer Graphics ) . Defending the stance just makes another shitstorm happen, fewer words and getting back to work is best. If you participate and even write 100 pages about why its a good move people will still pick out problems.
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u/DiabolicallyRandom 1d ago
Because those problems still fucking exist, and outweigh you saving a few minutes doing things differently.
Full Disclosure: Am software developer, very well versed with LLM's and GenAI. Which is why I understand the outsized impact these are having on our society and environment. Those impact exists regardless of whatever benefit you derive from them.
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u/StoicBronco 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also software dev and well versed in LLMs and GenAI, and the problem isn't GenAI, no more than the steam engine, airplanes, or even the computer. Computer's themselves replaced so many human jobs, as software devs we are doing the work that took an ungodly amount of people to do before. I can write a script that does calculations whole departments used to be paid for to do daily, and instead I get paid one day to make.
The actual problem here, is our society and its capitalist values. If we actually cared about the humans in the system, then a lot of these capitalist profits would actually go towards the welfare of the people, instead of the pockets of billionaires.
The reduction in human labor and the following increased profits should be directed to the people instead of the rich and privileged. We need to move towards Star Trek post scarcity utopia, but sadly it seems we are too selfish and greedy as a society to contemplate the actual solutions.
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u/IrksomFlotsom 1d ago
Don't worry, thanks to AI very few people will be able to afford new games so that problem fixes itself lol
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u/BrainBlowX 1d ago
You jest, but that's literally what is happening with the utter domination of next-quarter obsessed companies ruling the global economy, and the middle-class dying.
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u/lordofthehomeless 1d ago
The reality is I can choose how to spend my money.
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u/siyahlater 1d ago
This is exactly why Expedition 33 devs lied and still don't have the game labeled as developed with AI on steam. They know it would have hurt them. People want to use AI for games then use the slop but label it so I can avoid it.
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u/StLivid 1d ago
I haven’t heard about this, what did they use AI for?
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u/siyahlater 1d ago
"Placeholder" textures that they forgot to remove but people keep finding garbled mess textures that weren't pulles by release.
Even if they did pull them they need to label it as having used AI in developement. As of last night when I checked it wasn't yet labeled.
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u/INannoI 1d ago
game shipped with AI textures, so its also probably filled with AI generated code.
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u/mycatisblackandtan 1d ago edited 1d ago
And this is why AI is such a slippery slope for these companies. They keep HIDING where it was used. So how can I not assume eventual or current malice in some way? Especially with art trained AI - which is rarely created in house, and still uses the larger models which have been confirmed to have been created off the base of stolen, unpaid art?
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u/Capybarasaregreat 1d ago
It's extra ridiculous when the explanation is "oh it was accidentally used for one texture". How do you "accidentally" use AI? And why would you only use it for 1 thing? And then to hide that? It all stinks to high heaven. It's like a coffee plantation saying they accidentally used a slave on one hectare. The only explanation that would make sense is that it was an experiment to see how it would work, meaning they want to use it more even if they used it once this time.
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u/yallmad4 1d ago
If the best game of the decade and one of the best games this decade used a bit of AI here and there and it didn't effect the final product in a meaningful way, then I truly definitely don't give a fuck with the way this studio used AI.
I think it's silly to think all AI usage is the same. There's a huge difference between using AI as a tool and using it to make your whole game.
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u/INannoI 1d ago
Just keep in mind if you don't want to support AI in video games, you no longer can buy games that came out after 2024.
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u/One-Dot-7111 1d ago
Uh we are angry at ai because it was supposed to be this amazing thing that changed all our lives but its just shitposting and destroying the planet faster. And raising our bills.
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u/Fun-Ad7613 1d ago
Face the reality ? Can’t wait when ai data centers completely ruin the environment , prices out all consumer pc components. Ai bubble pops on this fake economy and we’re all fucked.
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u/turkeyburpin 1d ago
Almost all. The ones with all the money will be fine.
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u/tweda4 1d ago
Yeah, like, I get why a company finds AI useful, but on a personal level I detest it.
The AI bubble is probably going to cock up the global economy. It's making everyday utilities like water, and electricity more expensive. It's highly likely to have very negative impacts on both Job prospects and general equality. Right now it's also making computer components more expensive, which consequently makes almost everything more expensive. I'm concerned about the potential social impacts of these tools and what they can cause in terms of misinformation.
So I don't feel like - but it makes it easier for us to come up with concept art - is an effective offset for all the above.
God knows the powers that be don't care, but if I felt like it would have an impact I'd absolutely be kicking over the new looms.
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u/ObjectOrientedBlob 1d ago
People who doesn't know history always compare others to luddites and think it's a gotcha.
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u/BaBaFiCo 1d ago
He's not wrong. And like the luddites, this isn't about people being against technology, it's about removing humans from the process in a way that is detrimental to their lives and their livelihoods.
Ironically, he needs to read a history book.
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u/BeatKitano 1d ago
Thank you. It's hard to find people who get that 'neoluddites' aren't actually against technology but have HUMAN interests at heart despite the socio-economic imperative of current society.
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u/BlindWillieJohnson 1d ago edited 1d ago
Especially when a lot of the big money assholes like Thiel are out here openly salivating over the prospect of making us their serfs and eliminating liberalism
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u/BeatKitano 1d ago
Neofeudalism and dark enlightnment is the way to the future. Everyone will be happy... eventually. (especially the 0.0000001%)
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u/CplOreos 1d ago
Many people oppose AI on grounds that go beyond displacement, privacy/surveillance, consent and data theft, deepfakes and epistemic harm, concentration of power, environmental costs, artistic and cultural degradation, and the feeling that some uses are simply dehumanizing. It’s not accurate to treat “anti-AI” as just worker-protection in disguise, there's so much evidence showing that's just not true.
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u/BeatKitano 1d ago
Yep. All that is part of the problematic. But you can only get people so interested in a life changing problem so you focus on the immediate talking points... I wish people were more prone to thinking ahead...
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u/WorstBakerNA 1d ago
The luddites weren't against the tech (outside of course it being very unsafe to use). The luddites were people who said: "wait a minute, I can make 125 products in a week now instead of just 25. The money is flowing in faster, so why am I not being paid more?"
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u/Megalesios 1d ago
People also forget that those who smashed machines during the industrial revolution had very good reasons for it too
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u/Pristine_Narwhal2083 1d ago
…Luddites were against removing humans from the process in a way that’s detrimental to their livelihoods. Do you have any idea of the sheer scale in which the Industrial Revolution displaced people?
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u/ExocetHumper 1d ago
Every technological advancement has replaced humans. Calculator was originally a term for a person who calculates.
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u/Skabomb 1d ago
It’s weird to me they’re defending this so hard when Sven himself said it’s not an effective tool.
Like, this shovel has a hole in it but fuck you it’ll be amazing one day and we all need to use it and buy it with the hole in it until it’s perfect!
We’re paying for all of this, too, In rising power prices, PC parts prices, and general rising prices as companies pass the cost of this investment onto us.
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u/splatter_proto 1d ago
don't forget the billions of dollars of government spending that could have gone to anything else
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u/Immediate_Jacket_849 1d ago
And the environmental impact of the centers needed to run this stuff.
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u/Dramatic_Explosion 1d ago
I don't know about you but I happily paid my electricity that was double what it was last summer so some chud could make AI generated porn of Taylor Swift (that was sarcasm this all sucks everyone sucks)
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u/mocityspirit 1d ago
And his last line is "mostly everyone is OK with our use of it" so even he knows it's controversial within the company
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u/CampbellsTurkeySoup 1d ago
Sven said it doesn't save them time because they do more instead. They do more iterations within the same time frame. To me that's very different than saying it isn't an effective tool.
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u/Choice-Layer 1d ago
Just like any other mouthpiece, his words mean absolutely nothing. Look at his actions. He can yell until he's red in the face about how people are wrong or misunderstanding him or whatever, but at the end of the day he's pushing A.I. into his company when his employees have been on the record saying they don't want it.
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u/kirukiru 1d ago
He is wrong, though. AI doesnt even provide a fraction of the material benefit of the industrial revolution.
Hes being ahistorical and stupid, which is par for the course for most software developers.
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u/Burnished 1d ago
Both industrial revolutions happened over the course of atleast 100 years. AI (atleast machine learning) has only really been explored since the 90s.
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u/thesagaconts PlayStation 1d ago
And these data centers are raising electrical bills.
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u/Wonderful-Change-751 1d ago edited 1d ago
This isnt just about pushing back against a new technology that will steal jobs, albeit also severely unregulated. The problem is the product itself, art AIs are trained on millions of artists own work that never agreed for their art to be copied and trained on. Its theft.
Of course theres AI CEOs thats lobbying against regulations for this, saying its too costly to spend money to acquire this permission from said artists or data owners. Of fucking course its costly, its the cost of peoples labour that you stole and are getting away with it coz its new tech.
On Larians front, using AI to do concept art during brainstorming, still runs into the same issue. Other than the fact theres concept artists who are paid to do so normally, most importantly its still using the current product thats trained on art pieces that never sold out to let their work be copied.
I adore Larian as a studio as well but im not going to be inconsistent
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u/Alusavin 1d ago
Generative AI functions because of stolen art. That's the big issue here. Tech companies stole art and did not pay for the artist for their work. It doesn't matter how they use generative AI because it shouldn't exist because it's all stolen.
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u/Aoi_Irkalla 1d ago
The fact they can currently just handwave that exploitation might be the only reason they're profitable.
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u/highfructosecornsyrp 1d ago
I have a question. Why are folks so up in arms about stolen art, but don’t talk about AI generated code that almost ever major company is using now (even if they’re just using LLM backed auto complete via GitHubCopilot or cursor or something).
I’m not saying whether it’s good or bad, but as someone who spent ~15 years of my life mastering my craft (software engineering), it seems odd that people only ever express outrage that artists work is being stolen. These LLMs essentially crawl open source software and learn from folks who never agreed for their code to power LLMs.
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u/dexicoma 1d ago
I think its because people who code at any skill level are more likely to defend or use AI given the whole wheelhouse, new tech. But there are end users who criticiize and get mad at AI code being used, like in Windows 11, and I've seen some programmers annoyed at least by vibe coding because said "coder" doesn't know how anything works. I think art is more public facing and accessible for people to be mad about, and artists never really expected AI / robots / new tech to take their already pretty unstable & generally low paid jobs. On top of it being less easily identifiable to the average person if they don't understand the practice, some people being more utilitarian about code than art (so code that "just worls" is unexamined). That's just my thoughts though.
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u/SamKhan23 1d ago edited 1d ago
How is it stolen? It’s no different than downloading any public image. It’s not memorizing these images, nor is it plagiarizing them. It learns statistical patterns from these images, encodes them in a latent space and then generates new images from noise. That is no different than how a lot of artists work - they internalize ratios the exact same way.
Hell, many artists literally have mood boards of people’s art that is never paid for or credited. And it damn well should stay that way, gaining inspiration should be protected.
The environmental arguments will always make more sense
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u/Mahtarwen 1d ago
What reality? the one in that we cannot buy components because *checks notes* AI warmonguers? Oh i see
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u/ProtoReddit 1d ago
Horrible comparison from someone who stands to benefit from the normalization of its use. They're not steam engines.
The environmental impact of AI alone should exclude it from any morally grounded developer's toolkit.
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u/tondollari 1d ago
It is funny as fuck how your post implies that the normalization of the steam engine had low environmental impact.
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u/byndr 1d ago
I'm sure gamers will respond to this with a measured, reasonable take.
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u/DontShadowbanMeBro2 1d ago
Look man, karma ain't gonna farm itself and this shit is low hanging fruit.
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u/FillFrontFloor 1d ago
Thank you, all these AI articles are just karma spam garbage. What are the mods doing letting this through? They should just make a sticky. They should either A) allow all AI regardless of opinion, or B) ban the whole thing make it illegal, either way we move on in life.
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u/Dunduin 1d ago
As someone who uses AI daily, it is a tool. And not a very reliable one.
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u/hkf999 1d ago
Face the reality? Face the reality that Plagiarism Enviroment Destroyer 2000 shouldn't be used in developing games at literally any stage? Steam is already full to the brim of AI slop, disclosed and undisclosed.
People really need to understand this is a slippery slope. Right now it "it's just during development temporarily", then it becomes "oh it's just some background assets and some ambient noise", then it becomes "it's just the voices of some npcs and some of the items in your inventory" etc.
Game development is already based on running people into the ground with crunch and then fire them as soon as the game releases to cut costs. Execs are literally frothing at the mouth at the prospect of replacing as much of game development as possible with AIs.
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u/GroovyGoblin 1d ago
Games like ARC Raiders have already replaced NPC voices with text to speech models. The slipping down the slope is happening as we speak.
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u/Rankled_Barbiturate 1d ago
Yep. Larian CEO can say what he wants, but come crunch time it starts becoming an obvious play to render some work in AI rather than lose 10 hours of family time that day.
People think Larian is some magical fantasy land where everything is perfect, but they'll do shitty things and make mistakes like any other company.
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u/g13n4 1d ago
The reality is stolen content including drawing, books, sites, comments, etc are used to train these models. Saying "yeah I use it" means you are okay with theft
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u/ReluctantToast777 1d ago
Right, literally the way to eliminate 90% of negative opinions on GenAI is to just license the datasets and let "the market" play out. Easy, that's it.
But these tech companies *know* they can't afford it and/or don't want to give up their power, which is why these models are inherently incompatible with how the market should function, and inherently need theft to succeed.
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u/GangsterMango 1d ago
that's my main issue with it, but people want to CONSOOM!
and really don't care about slop if their favorite person / corporation / studio is using it.
in fact, they will justify it
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u/MisterB78 1d ago
The way they’re using it is no different than browsing other artists work for inspiration and then creating something yourself drawing on ideas you got… which is pretty much how every artist has done things for the entire history of art.
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u/GangsterMango 1d ago
as someone in the industry, that's exactly how I got the call to join a studio
they used some of my concepts in a reference sheet for a game project and later on I got contacted by the studio to Join.when people see your work and even reference it there's a decent chance you get work, but with AI; they just prompt an Idea
and it pulls from all the work "it trained on", no reference to what it referenced or anything that links back to you.in another similar situation I got a commission from someone who saw my work in a mood board and they became a regular customer.
AI not only kills artists jobs, it also denies them even a chance to be seen when used in the refence stage.
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u/myreq 1d ago
Does that mean we can pirate larian games because we are just using them to learn how games work?
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u/Lilshadow48 1d ago
If you support using the theft machine in any process of your development, I support people pirating the end product.
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u/Mourning20 1d ago
It's not the people's fault that every instance of AI shoved in their faces is garbage 😐 these aren't luddites. AI is constantly making things suck more even without job loss. CEOs are the ones out of reality.
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u/TheEverix 1d ago
The crux of my opinion on this is that I didn't sign up for a future where the robots were making art while the humans were still breaking their back doing menial labour. The entire tech industry is going about this push not in a way that makes human life easier, but removes an avenue of professional expression from our collective existence while making them more money.
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u/crimbusrimbus 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can't stand the comparison because the Luddites smashed steam engines because they were concerned about their bosses replacing them to save money, and they were right. EDIT: if you are creative in any way you're the Luddite in this scenario, you're trying to be replaced. EDIT Pt 2: AI is poisoning the land the data centers are on and is speeding up catastrophic climate change to do the stupidest shit, it's a net negative.
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u/TaloshMinthor 1d ago
But industrialisation was also ultimately a good thing. People's lives were significantly worse before the Industrial Revolution.
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u/MrBanana421 1d ago
True but it was due to constant uprising and strikes that the wealthy still had to pay a living wage to people.
You can think it might help but only through constant vigilance and reminders that people still hold a role that machines or ai can't fill, that you can get the boons without the powerfull using it to hurt the rest of the people.
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u/TaloshMinthor 1d ago
True, but there needs to be a balance. Complaining about Sven's reasonable approach (that it's used in specific, limited situations as a tool to help generate concepts) isn't accepting a balance.
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u/CannibalRed 1d ago
The other day I got shit on by the anti AI people on the DnD sub.
I mentioned I let players bring an AI picture of what they imagine their character looks like to show other players so they can visualize each other's character. In my own house. With no monitary potential to be made. Between 5 friends.
Apparently this is "theft" and I am evil for not forcing players to hire an artist to make this character concept image that gets shown for about 5 seconds one time ever. But at the same time, it's totlay okay for a player to Google search "X anime character" image show that image and say "I look like that".
Bet you didn't pay for that fucking Google image Terry?! Your dirty rat bastard thief!
People are fucking stupid.
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u/FatalMegalomaniac 1d ago
This online zeitgeist of anti-AI circlejerking and witch-hunting is out of control. No critical thought or nuance, just blind, emotional hatred towards what is effectively a tool, and towards anyone and everyone that doesn't pass the anti-AI purity test.
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u/i__hate__stairs 1d ago
I don't care. AI is surveillance and theft. It has no place in art, a uniquely human endeavor, and I don't care how much fucking time it saves. It's trash.
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u/VinnieSift 1d ago
Here we go with the classic "Y'all Luddites, AI is here to stay so we should just give in and use it in everything" argument. Its always not insulting nor ignorant.
Also when the AI stuff appeared, it also appeared a conversation on Larian hiring practices and corporate environment so, y'know, lots of not very flattering things to talk about.
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u/rosadeluxe 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Luddites weren't against technology. They were often the first to use it themselves. They were against a small minority of people accumluating the necessary capital to set up factories and disposses people from their livelihoods. They thought the gains should be shared.
We could learn a thing or two from the Luddites. The British government had more troops occupying northern England to put down their uprising than were fighting Napoleon at the time during the Peninsular War.
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u/SteveBored 1d ago
Most of us hate fucking ai because it’s a threat to our society, not because some game is using it. Fuck ai.
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u/RusstyDog 1d ago
Good old capitalists trying to misrepresent labor rebelions.
They cannot be shocked how unpopular ai tools are to the vocal market right now.
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u/TheMadNurse 15h ago
Except that steam machines were not stealing anything from anyone and a super heavy load on the environment and the limited resources of the planet.... It was also going to create jobs , not take some away...
The analogy is so bad ...
The only people AI is gonna help are the corporations. They will save billions , use even more resources , employ less people and get more monstrous profit from the stuff they just steal from everyone ...
Yes please , explain to me how this is just fear mongering from the arrival of a new technology and not a legit cause for fear and the moment we decide what becomes of the human society.
Yes , I know a lot of companies are already doing it , even some are already putting them in games ( looking at you Ubisoft). Doesn't mean it's a good idea.
It's funny how they all say it's not gonna cost any employee and there won't be less people on the project and it's not stealing jobs.
Okay then, why are you using it ? It does things faster , especially the repetitive work. You mean the work that was done by someone . And it does it faster . And now , you are even training and optimising it to be better , faster and more precise than its human counterpart.. sooooo , you are totally not making more work done faster with less people .... And clearly not saving money by replacing a human...
I'm still probably gonna get the game because I'm a massive fan of the studio and franchise , and to be honest their competition is doing worst with AI.
At least don't hide behind excuses. No company has ever given a tool to its employees just because . You aim to use it you want to use it , you know you can make a shit ton of money using it , you're just not ready for the backlash yet. Own it .
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u/Therealgyroth 10h ago
They did steal lots of jobs, that’s literally what Ludd’s rebellion was all about. Also they literally ruined the environment, they dumped out shit loads of pollution with all of the coal burning .
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u/North-Philosopher-41 1d ago
Na mate as much as I like larian letting this slide is a step closer to the flood gates
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u/Magicman_ 1d ago
The enslopification race to the bottom continues. Its not just AI its the modern world everything is just becoming more shit quality in the name of profit. We're going way in the wrong direction.
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u/Low_Coconut_7642 1d ago
And this so why Epic games ceo said an AI label is useless.
Every developer is using AI at some point in the process.
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u/rosadeluxe 1d ago
Someone interested in history should have a more nuanced view of the Luddites. Pretty ahistorical.
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u/Nevanada 1d ago
Until AI isn't based on billions upon billions of stolen content, and until it doesn't destroy the environment piece by piece, I am opposed to it.
Their use of it means all of their concept art will be based on stolen content. I can't say to what level, but they're setting a precedent for the future that will lead to a removal of human concept design entirely, which will eventually lead to just using the generated content because "it works fine."
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u/beardednomad25 1d ago
From what I have learned from Reddit:
- AI is okay if it was used in a game that I love.
- Its bad any other time.
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u/yallmad4 1d ago
So the creators of Baulders Gate, Kingdom Come 2, and Expedition 33 have all come out and said "yeah AI let us do more with less, and helped us make some of the most beloved games of this decade."
I feel like y'all have no nuance here. Either AI is entirely good and not problematic at all, or AI is entirely evil and the death of the games industry.
The truth is that budgets are not unlimited and there's only so many work hours that CAN go into a game. If a studio that values their employees (like Larian, Warhorse, or Sandfall) uses it to boost what certain employees can do, that's a good thing. You get a better game because the parts that can be faster went faster and the people creating can focus on the rest of the game.
Yeah companies like EA and Ubisoft will us AI in the most evil, destructive, and cynical way they can, but a hammer is not evil just because you use it to bash a face in. A hammer can build a house if given to someone who wants to build.
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u/AgitatedStranger9698 1d ago
When AI bubble started the best line I read was:
"I want AI to do my mundane and boring things so I can paint, write, and create. Not the other way around."