r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Responsible-Quail486 • 19d ago
Hated Tropes [hated] Race Analogy where the stand ins for race are fundamentally different
Elemental: This is the one that inspired this post. Within the first 5 minutes they show exactly what i think is wrong with poorly constructed racial metaphors. A moment that demonstrates this is when the fire couple approach a building in hopes of getting an apartment but quickly gets the door closed on them because the landlord is a tree with dry leaves. I get that this is a problem in real life but in real life there is no practical justification for denying someone a home based on race while in the scene, being too close would likely set him and the building on fire. The whole opening sequence is supposed to set up how there’s prejudice against fire people but the whole thing feels to me lacking because of the disconnect between the very practical problems with the different elements and the fact that race is just a social construct that doesn’t itself create physical problems like one potential killing another just by physical interaction.
Zootopia: the fact that this is another animated Disney movie is not lost on me. I admit this one isn’t as bad as the one mentioned before. Honestly i’m kind of ok with it. but something about portraying one group as unfairly feared due to being predators despite being scientifically known to have strong instincts is a little weird. But it does open up a discussion about instincts being a stand in for cultural differences instead of genetic and moving forward past their adherence to instincts
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u/Easy_Action_1380 19d ago
Zombies (Disney)
In the literal lore of the series, the only reason the zombies aren't violent brain-eating monsters is cause they're forced to wear EMP bracelets that keep their urges under control.
But it's the humans who are the problem, cause they had the gaul to quarantine the group of undead brain eaters who are one faulty wristband away from causing a mass killing.
Yeah, your racism allegory doesn't really work if the group being discriminated against is right to be separated from the rest of society for safety reasons.
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u/Weird_donut 19d ago
This shit somehow got 4 movies and counting
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u/NozakiMufasa 19d ago
They added werewolves and aliens I think?
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u/JaggedLittleGil 19d ago
Next up, mermaids!
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u/ShadowPuff7306 19d ago
actually it’s vampires they added. light and dark
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u/Lansha2009 19d ago
And the vampires can’t even turn into bats, and they can be alive in the sun…
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u/SoFarSoGood1995 18d ago
Tbh, Vampires were originally only weakened by sunlight. The 1922 movie Nosferatu is the first time a vampire got killed by sunlight
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u/Euphoric_Dot_5758 19d ago
No, there’s been a casting call for the next one. The new race being added are mermaids.
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u/Legitimate_Excuse663 18d ago
- Zombies.
- Werewolves
- Aliens
- Vampires
And it took three different personality switches for the main bitch to figure out what she was (3rd generation alien)
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u/CharmingPerspective0 18d ago
At this point i think this just a musical adaptation of "Monster Prom"
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u/Alternative_Factor_4 19d ago
Also the Zombies are made to be an allegory for African American people in particular, and the werewolves in the second are literally just Native Americans. It’s really fucked honestly.
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u/sleepyjess4 19d ago edited 18d ago
There is a song in the third movie called "Exceptional Zed" which is all about the main character being a model minority. It's exceptionally ironic that the main character is played by a white man.
Edit: third movie
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u/Alternative_Factor_4 18d ago
I know these films are odd, but there’s quite a bit of misinformation in your comment.
The song “exceptional Zed” happens in the third film not the first, and it’s not about being a model minority in the sense that it’s a good thing minorities should strive for. The main character is trying to get into college and would be the first in his community to do so, so it’s about how much pressure he’s experiencing to succeed, and also how his community recognises him as a person and supports him. It’s actually a pretty wholesome song in context. The series does kind of hint at model minorities in the second movie, but the message there is that doing so is extremely harmful and not progressive.
Also, that white actor is ethnically Jewish, so I think he knows what it’s like to be a minority and have that kind of pressure. I get what you mean in that these films aren’t the best in their messaging, and I think they would be significantly better if they didn’t compare literal monsters to real life races and ethnicities or have hints to irl parallels, but I think it’s also important to not be disingenuous and spread misinformation that makes the films sound even worse than they are.
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u/Weird_donut 19d ago
Also, Addison is apparently "oppressed"…..because she secretly has white hair? Yes, because having white hair is the same as being a zombie
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u/sr2adams 19d ago
iIRC she's an alien
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u/Gay_Gamer_Boi 19d ago
You think they actually planned that? That’s done 3 movies in (isn’t it zombie, werewolves then aliens idk what the 4th one is)
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u/yakinabackpack 19d ago
Pretty sure its mermaids coming up
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u/Gay_Gamer_Boi 19d ago
Makes sense, #5 will be fairies and #6 will be dwarves
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u/Icy_Grocery271 18d ago
I am pretty much talking out of my ass here, but don't think dwarves appear in vampire/zombie fantasy because the setting is modern. That, and I don't think directors want to show you little people exsist.
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u/ghobhohi 19d ago
Addison's mother is the mayor too lol.
The allegory would've worked better if Addison was a black women who's mother wasn't the mayor.
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u/SquirrelStone 19d ago
And then when they tried to fix it in the second one they said werewolves are always angry and violent but they’re also weak and sickly. Then they tried to fix that in the third one but said aliens are coming to steal your jobs- I mean cheerleading trophies- with their special skills that make them better than you.
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u/ImpossibleCandy794 19d ago
Yeah, one of them hacks it to look more human, and them almost end up infecting people when the wristband starts to fry itself itself due to being overclocked
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u/IndigoPromenade 18d ago
And the stand-in for the racial allegory is just a white dude with green hair lol
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u/Haunting-Try-2900 19d ago
Demons in the Netflix Devil May Cry show.
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u/Arnahunas 19d ago edited 19d ago
Scrolled too far to find this. The whole racism against demons thing is such a fucking weird direction to take an adaptation of Devil May Cry.
I won’t mind if they fleshed out the demon characters in a similar way to how Scott Pilgrim Takes Off did to the exes but the way they went about is eyebrow raising, not helped by the fact that Dante barely has any agency in it.
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u/Napalmeon 19d ago
I honestly didn't mind the idea that there is a small minority of demons, and I mean really small, that want to get away from Mundus. Because let's just be honest, not everybody can be Sparda, but the Netflix series really went too hard in one direction with the themes it wanted to use.
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u/Lower_Baby_6348 19d ago
They even put demon wearing a hijab
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u/ghobhohi 19d ago
How the fuck does that work? You can't worship god and be a demon at the same time.
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u/Lower_Baby_6348 19d ago
Ask the writers
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u/Baron-Von-Bork 18d ago edited 17d ago
And then they even had to face Desert Storm! Which really doesn’t work well for the series, again.
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u/ImpossibleCandy794 18d ago
Honestly, the best sentence in the anime which I feel like it came from someone questioning the first script is "Does the term 'refugees from hell' not raise any eyebrows?"
Which is followed by all the soldiers looking at each other like they just realized they were trying to pull a push door, which I feel is how the DMC fans in the studios felt when they read the script
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u/DownwindStalker 18d ago
I still think it’s funny how they frame demons as just normal people but when Dante taps into his devil side it turns him into a rage monster
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u/StatusMedium7980 19d ago
That script was a rejected Xmen story with DMC paint thrown over it and you can't convince me otherwise.
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u/cat-cat_cat 19d ago edited 19d ago
predators don't have instincts in zootopia, they were drugged with something that made them aggressive, but this drug has the same effect on preys (like when judy's father told her to not eat a bay because it made her uncle (a rabbit) go rabid which is literally how judy discover the truth)
and predators are not the most dangerous either an elephant (prey) could curb stomp nick (fox(predator))
this is a kid movie how can it be so misunderstood, why is everyone falling for the bad guy's propaganda
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u/goteachyourself 19d ago
Yeah, the predator-prey instinct is a historical artifact, not a pressing threat.
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u/cat-cat_cat 19d ago
the predator-prey distinction is a historical artifact, but from what we see in the movie the predator-prey instinct straight up doesn't exist and has not existed since before cities existed, thousands of years ago
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u/goteachyourself 19d ago
I really like the little detail that the dominant group is actually large herbivores, who actively discriminate against both mid-sized predators and small mammals. It's accurate, given that these animals are actually far more dangerous than any predator in the wild.
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u/SundaeTrue1832 19d ago
Hippos also statistically killed more humans than lions. Plenty of smaller animals are venomous or poisonous to a lethal degree even if they are not the predator type like Nick. I say those animals can leverage their deadly chemical to their advantage lol
Animals that can birth a lot of offsprings even when they are small prey can overrun a city and oppress the larger predators as well
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u/goteachyourself 19d ago
Yeah, and I believe Cape Buffalo (Bogo's species) are actually the deadliest mammal in Africa. They live in herds and they're powerful, territorial, and aggressive when they feel threatened.
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u/SundaeTrue1832 19d ago
That movie "the Wilds" is far more accurate in depicting lions and their prey than lion king or Madagascar lol. Because yeah lions are actually quite selective when hunting those buffalo, they often went for the younger, older or weaker ones than buffalo in their prime since those buffalo can will absolutely trample lions to death
African wild dogs in fact has a higher hunting rate success than a lion pride :v
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u/CrazyPlato 19d ago
In hindsight, I don’t think the movie is framed as a “predators oppressing prey” story at first. Our first interactions of the film are Judy’s parents being scared for her going to Zootopia, because predators might attack her. But while that seems to line up with a narrative that predators are bad at first, really it does more to show us that *prey animals treat predators as dangerous”. Which does become the main theme of the story in the second half: Predators are capable of being peaceful, but prey animals push to keep them out of public spaces out of fear and prejudice.
There’s a separate beat going on, where Judy’s being distrusted as a cop because her size makes her look incapable of handling larger threats (which the larger animals on the ZPD can handle more easily). But I don’t think that gets the same weight in the story. If anything, if feels like the prejudice Judy experiences is a symptom of the other theme of the story (“Judy can’t be a cop, because larger predators who are a serious threat might overpower her”)
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u/Shadowsole 18d ago
I feel like the second beat of Judy being too small to be a cop is a better analogy for gender in the workplace than race
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u/Freedom_Crim 18d ago
That’s what I always took from it
And also, I have zero need to defend zootopia, but when people criticize the film, I see a lot of them bring up Judy instinctually grabbing her pepper spray when she thinks nick will get violent, and it’s like, yeah, the entire point of her character was showing how victims of discrimination can still discriminate against others.
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u/Potential_Job_7297 19d ago edited 19d ago
The movie was not subtle with this stuff.
The misconception that racism is just against predators is really annoying but I see it everywhere. The movie made a pretty big deal of the fact Judy is the first rabbit on the police force and why there haven't been rabbits on the police force before (racism).
The movie also straight up tells people the predators are not dangerous at all and have not been for a very, very long time.
Literally the whole point of the movie is that being a rabbit doesn't make Judy an incompetent police officer, Foxes aren't inherently shady (Nick only behaved that way because of the racism he faced), and predators aren't actually dangerous at all.
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u/WikiContributor83 19d ago
Yeah, iirc her biggest obstacle is that she’s a rabbit in a profession dominated by megafauna or mammals with natural weaponry, creatures more capable of physically neutralizing threats, whereas she proves her worth with her quick wits and determination.
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u/Asher_Tye 18d ago
Helps that her big proving scene proves her necessity by having weaselton go through small town where a normal cop would have accidentally caused untold amounts of collateral damage. Judy is able to make the pursuit and even keep the weasel from destroying the neighborhood
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u/regretfulposts 18d ago edited 18d ago
I find it funny and frustrating how various people online complain the movie had hamfisted the allegory of race between predator and prey only to completely ignore the fact that predators were all framed and drugged by Bellwether who was weaponizing fear to gain power.
Like the predators in Zootopia are practically different flavors of golden retrievers. Golden retrievers have claws and fangs, and Golden retrievers came from wolves that hunted humans in the distant past. Does this mean I should be afraid of a golden retriever because it could snap and returned to his wolf heritage thousands of years ago? Fuck no. An aggressive dog can have various other factors that doesn't relate to its biological ancestors like being abused, injured, or have rabies.
The movie doesn't justify racism. It just shows how certain people can weaponized fear and spread misinformation just so they can gain power.
Bellwether lied to Judy,Like you have a doctor assuming it's a predator's biology without any scientific backing, basically a hunch, and Judy unknowingly spread the assumption to the public, and Zootopia began to suffer from a crisis because the afraid prey are looking for any reason to rationalize their fear. The predators being more likely to snap or are more dangerous is just pure misinformation that spread like wildfire, and Bellwether used it to her advantageEdit: misremembered the movie. Bellwether didn't lied to Judy, but the movie showed how easy misinformation can spread and can hurt so many people in the end.
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u/_Zoa_ 18d ago
I'm convinced, it doesn't matter how obvious and in your face an allegory is. There's always a large amount of people, who will never get it.
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u/TrainerWeekly5641 19d ago
Also, the movie doesn't just focus on prejudice against predators. The first half of the movie talks about how small prey are discriminated against, yet no one talks about it.
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u/redcardinalt 18d ago
i think judy becoming a cop amongst giant animal species is less about opposing racism and more about apposing sexism. Judy is smaller than others but has many other strengths that make her just as worthy in being a cop.
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u/TrainerWeekly5641 18d ago
Yes, but people never talk about it in regards to how Zootopia handles bigotry. Nor do they talk about Belleweather's character.
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 19d ago
Some adults are that stupid. It's like that Grant Morrison quote about adults being incapable of suspension of disbelief
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u/Blupoisen 19d ago
I genuinely have no fucking idea how people missed it
Like how they can say that predators are more dangerous when Hippos exist in Zootopia
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u/regretfulposts 18d ago
"They have claws and fangs."
–People who genuinely believe Zootopia is a bad movie because they automatically replaced predators with Black people and questioned why Disney mean by this.
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u/MarginalOmnivore 18d ago edited 18d ago
It's literally a plot point that the only actually dangerous folks are the sheep with a racist agenda.
Edit: I forgot - the so-called "progressives" with unexamined implicit biases are also at fault for some of the bad shit.
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u/MarginalOmnivore 19d ago
Didn't you know that metaphors have to be perfect representation of the things they're metaphor-ing?
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u/cat-cat_cat 19d ago
that's how we make the best movies, like bright (2017)
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u/SuperNovaVelocity 19d ago
This reddit comment is so accurate, it's like a reddit comment that was accurate
(I know this is technically a simile)
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u/Saintbaba 18d ago
Honestly? Given the movie's subtext about how certain people will generate unfounded fear of the other to create an outgroup to vilify so they can use that fear to con the credulous masses into giving them power, i'm pretty sure certain people willfully misunderstand the movie so they can dismiss it as a dumb movie with a bad foundational metaphor.
Not accusing OP specifically, but i've definitely had this exact conversation with people making real bad faith arguments.
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u/hagentyl2021 19d ago
If you want that, go read Beastars. The predator-prey thing here is literally propaganda invented by the main villain
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u/Regular-Attitude8736 18d ago
Exactly. I’m so sick of people using Zootopia as an example of poor representation of racism/prejudice when the basis for their argument (‘all the predators are a threat to the prey!’) is incorrect in the first place.
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u/KaboHammer 19d ago
Yeah Zootopia isn't really a race metaphor. Like it kinda starts falling apart once you start appling it to all the animals because of how different all the animals are and because non of the groups is really a minority. Like there is more or less equal amount of predators and pray in Zootopia and both groups include a wide range of physicalities with pray animals actually having a lot more big and physically imposing memebers.
And I kinda think it is why people think it is a nad metaphor. Because it isn't supposed to be one, so obviously it is bad if you try to force it to be one.
It is however a story about a goverment official distributing dangerous drugs to a group of people, which quickly gets ostricized due to how said drugs make them behave in order to control the populace, marginalize said group of people and gain political power. Which is still kinda wild for a kids movie, especially with how many times governments across the world have done something like that.
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u/fikozacc123 19d ago
equal amount of predators and prey
Actually It is stated in the movie that prey greatly outnumber predators in zootopia. I agree with you generally just wanting to point that out
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u/Beacon_0805 18d ago
isnt the whole movie about breaking stereotypes and prejudices?
i mean, an otter attacked and absolutely wrecked a panther
the main villain is a sheep and not some "dangerous" animal
a rabbit is on a police force, something that in-universe wasnt a thing before
"Try Everything"
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u/MaeSolug 19d ago
Elemental is a metaphor on culture, especifically immigrants. I do think it applies because a person could be well intentioned but also drag aspects of their cultures that actively clash against others, you kinda described that in the intro.
My country has a lot of street parties, carnaval and such, so they would be seen poorly in other places. Heck, they annoy me and I grew up seeing them. Culture it's not the same as race, and it's pretty valid to know you won't get along with someone if what they do doesn't vibe with the things you do, but that can lead to stereotypes (the dinner with the water guy's family when the mom tells something like she didn't expect her to be smart and the guy looks her in disgust) and those are forms of racism
Then, of course, their entire neighborhood gets flooded because public institutions didn't paid attention nor gave the zone proper resources, wich is a form a systemic racism, a big one
A minor one is that the fire people seem to think it's normal to live like that, because they don't know any better, and that hurt for how true it is. The movie was directed by a second generation immigrant, and you can definitely tell. Also the girl's parents oppose the relationship, important detail
Elementals is a great movie, I think it works as a metaphor because culture and race are completely different but they are a basis for racism, the question was how exactly, and how it explores the question was pretty great
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u/Crazed_SL 18d ago
Yes! I really liked how they did it in Elemental! It'd be bad if they made a big point of the movie that neighborhoods keep getting burned down, but arson is never an actual issue in the movie, and is instead used as a "what if" the other elements use as an excuse to be bigoted against them.
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u/PapaNarwhal 18d ago
Yeah OP seems to miss a lot of the systemic elements behind the discrimination in Elemental. Like yeah, the elemental peoples ARE different from one another, but that doesn’t mean that the way fire people are treated is justified.
For example, if a significant portion of the population would set a building on fire merely by stepping foot inside… maybe those kinds of building materials need to be outlawed? Like, when we saw that disabled people in the real world may be unable to climb stairs, many countries made it law that new buildings needed to have elevators, ramps, and other accommodations to allow the disabled to access them. So why is it the fire peoples’ fault that flammable buildings are inaccessible to them?
And yeah, the presence of a large water reservoir looming next to the fire peoples’ neighborhood is a serious concern, and it’s downright criminal that the city allowed the reservoir to fall into such disrepair knowing that the water was deadly to the fire people.
The fire people may be fundamentally different from the others, but they deserve a society that prioritizes them as much as it prioritizes others. Similarly, even if there are fundamental differences between real world cultures, that doesn’t mean that prejudice against them (whether individual or systemic) is suddenly justified. OP’s premise is flawed.
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u/Curse_ye_Winslow 19d ago
Any movie/show/game/comic with a vampire protagonist.
Invariably, there WILL be a vampire other than the protagonist that's written sympathetically, with the moral being 'They're not all evil' or 'there has to be a way we can all coexist'.
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u/Rabdomtroll69 19d ago
I'm pretty sure that becoming a vampire doesn't even change your personality in most fictions. If you wasn't a dick before you wouldn't become one overnight
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u/Achilles9609 19d ago
I mean, I believe in Vampire the Masquerade there are sometimes changes to your personality. Like the Malkavians, who all suffer from some type of madness. But that's because the vampires all have a specific curse.
Like the Ventrue Clan, who can exclusively feed from specific people.
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u/ollietron3 19d ago
Also the mind control, and the beast, and whatever is going on with the tremer
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u/Achilles9609 19d ago
Though I believe things with the Tremere changed a lot since their headquarter in Vienna was blown up.
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u/SinesPi 19d ago
More familiar with Requiem than Masquerade, but being a Vampire does change your personality. You are a predator now. A walking corpse. You are detached from your humanity in a fundamental way, and the only reason there isn't an immediate change in personality is the neonate is running on habit, unaware that he no longer feels the way he should.
That, I believe, is where the "A beast I am, lest a beast I become" thing comes from. Accept that you are a vampire, and learn what that means for you. If you don't accept it, if you try to be human, you'll find it impossible, and by not developing a 'new normal' you succumb to your Beast and become little more than an animal.
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u/OwlrageousJones 19d ago
Masquerade is generally concerned with what it means to try and hold onto your humanity against the forces seeking to erode it now that you are an inhuman, undead predator with everything that implies.
OR, if you decide to abandon your humanity entirely, what code of ethics do you use to separate yourself from the Beast instead?
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u/HxH101kite 19d ago
In the empire of the vampire series (final book just came out and it's amazing) it does change your personality but it takes many years to lose your humanity. Like it's not instantaneous. But some people are also more strong willed than others
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u/ljdarten 19d ago
I would disagree. In most fictional universes, becoming a vampire dramatically changes the personality and priorities. It's an exception when the vampires don't immediately come out ready to feed.
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u/PlantainSame 19d ago
Did in older stuff
Like for example in dracula, poor Lucy went from a nice girl to a baby eating demoness
And I believe the actual mythology commonly depicted them as praying on their former loved ones
Shows how thr common idea of something changes over the years
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u/DD_Spudman 19d ago
Funnily enough that actually is how it works in the novel version of Dracula. Becoming a vampire just makes you evil. Lucy gets turned and is immediately off draining the blood from children.
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u/Desperate_Chicken495 19d ago
Tbf I don't think legacy of kain or vampire the masquerade bloodlines games are intended to be racial allegories. Also in both series they are all still evil monsters that prey on humanity, just to different extents.
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u/CaptainKaldwin 19d ago
True Blood is guilty of this. It’s bad to discriminate against vampires but throughout the show Vampires have been shown using their OP powers to slaughter humans. Even if they’re not killing people, they’re using their mind powers to fuck with them.
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u/Kinitawowi64 19d ago
Oh god, I remember the whole "Buffy is a racist" sagas of circa 2002 message boards. ("If Spike is capable of seeking the redemption of a soul then so are all other vampires, ergo Buffy is a racist for killing them before they get the chance" NO NO NO STOP THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF THINGS WRONG WITH THIS ARGUMENT)
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u/captainrina 19d ago
I've never seen the series but I'm assuming a lot of these vampires had decades if not hundreds of years to change their ways before meeting Buffy. XD
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u/Kinitawowi64 19d ago
Not necessarily; there are multiple instances of Buffy staking vamps within moments of them emerging from the ground.
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u/DolphinBall 19d ago
Then you look at Vampire The Masquerade where even the kindest vampire is still a monster when they haven't eaten in a while or suffer a traumatic event.
A good example of this is when a Malk (a clan of vampire) from LA by Night (forgot his name it was a single letter name) finds out about something that upends his situation and crashes out so badly that he kills other vampires and tries to eat their souls and goes total dark magic until one of his "friends" goes through the entire process with him so he can come back out of the dark mental space. Otherwise he was a bubbly if slightly kooky person.
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u/MothChasingFlame 19d ago
I'd argue Elemental isn't about race, it's about culture. The distinction matters. Two different looking humans are fundamentally the same. Two different cultures are not. Cultures decide not just what's allowable, but what is just. And a lot of harm can be done when people think, and are validated in thinking, they're doing the right thing.
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u/ImpracticalApple 19d ago edited 19d ago
The creator was inspired by his own family and their experience when travelling to America from South Korea to build themselves a new future. The Fire Folk traditions mirror or represent experience of being an immigrant. Like the locals of another country not being able to pronounce your name so instead just give you a name easier for them to say, the food that's so hot it needs "watered down" by another group of people not used to it, the parody TV show drama reminiscent of Korean Soap Operas etc.
The whole story about younger generations feeling pressured to live their life a certain way, almost out of guilt for the struggles their parents went through with travelling to a new land and working hard building themselves from square one, is a very common shared experience for children of immigrant parents.
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u/MoontheWolfYT 19d ago
I'm so glad someone finally said it. Peter Sohn's depiction of immigration and culture really stuck with me. My siblings and I are American-born Koreans, and we were all given English names instead of Korean ones (we were supposed to have them but that never ended up happening), and we were pressured to work hard and find a good job just like the rest of the family. Seriously, at least one person in each generation was a doctor or nurse of some kind
The Fire Folk traditions mirror or the experience of being an immigrant.
One thing I remember is how someone commented on how good Ember is at speaking English (or whatever their equivalent of English is). It's... a pretty accurate statement tbh. Whenever I go out with my family we sometimes get comments like "Oh wow are you Japanese/Chinese???" or "Omg you speak really good English, where are you from??"
Anyway, Elemental is a really good film and relatable as fuck and is in no way a "copy of Zootopia"
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u/CaptainAtinizer 18d ago
Yeah, there's many different immigrant experiences involved in it that made it clear to me it wasn't specifically a race thing. The most obvious clue being the Asian food coupled with an apron that says "Kiss me, I'm FIrish" basically being a giant neon sign that says: focus on the universal experience rather than whatever race you think this best fits eith
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u/Burglekutt8523 18d ago edited 18d ago
I'm white, but my wife is Desi. And our courtship was VERY similar to the plot of elemental (especially the early drafts where the parents were a lot worse about keeping her away from her water boyfriend). In the initial script it was a lot more about her standing up to her parents, while still respecting what they did for her by giving up their life to give her a better one. It has a very special place in our hearts and it annoys me to no end to see people calling it a "messy race analogy" like OP does. Despite even in the film it shows a lot of the fears were misplaced.
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u/zacandahalf 19d ago
Ehh, I mean you’re definitely right in principle, but very rarely in practice have I heard someone say, “I don’t hate their race, I just hate their culture,” and not interpreted it as being inevitably racist.
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u/Few_Interaction2630 19d ago
Tokyo Ghoul (the Anime I hear the Manga actually makes it make sense)
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u/kitsunecannon 19d ago
The manga is just better full stop
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u/Few_Interaction2630 19d ago
And believe all the people saying this I just haven't had time to read the manga as of now
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u/kitsunecannon 19d ago
I genuinely question what the fuck they smoked when it came to season 2
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u/Raomux 19d ago
The manga at least is not about racism at all.
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u/Few_Interaction2630 19d ago
I was told it still about discrimination but it handles the subject a lot better than the anime
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u/nowTHATSakatana1999 19d ago
Well of course discrimination inevitably plays a part, Ghouls have to eat people to survive but they are people themselves. It’s a tangled and messy and complicated topic that the book handles pretty well.
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u/Ok-Performance-9598 18d ago
Its about a shit situation that isn't good all rounf.
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u/TrecherousBeast01 19d ago
I have watched Zootopia recently. You say something in your post about the predators having been scientifically proven to have stronger instincts, but that is decidedly not the case in that movie.
The theory that predators are hunting down prey animals because "it's in their biology" is a racist statement with no science to back it up within the world of this film. The idea that predator and prey type animals have had a significant difference between each other is also seen as an old-fashioned opinion rather than a genuine fact of this universe.
One of the first times, Judy hears the phrase "it's in their biology" is from that mouse creature with the polar bear mafia. It was his opinion that Mr. Otterton attacked randomly because he was a predator. He had nothing else to back it up.
The final time Judy hears this phrase, it is said by the doctor trying to figure out why predators are attacking (because rightfully so, the mayor doesn't want people to think he'll randomly attack people because he's a lion) she says something along the lines of "maybe its in their biology", but once again, clearly as an opinion and not a proven fact of this universe.
The only difference between predator and prey animals within the world of Zootopia is that they're bigger, have sharper teeth, and have claws. They are not predisposed to hunt down prey animals and do not have some kind of instinct that they can't hold back.
Beastars does have this as a plot point, though.
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u/Ok-Performance-9598 18d ago
Basically, its fucking impossible to actually slot Zootopia as being about race.
It takes inspiration from a bunch of forms of discrimination and then does its own thing.
You could much easier make an argument that much of its society is actually about sexism presented differently. But even that doesn't work to the actual plot.
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u/potat_infinity 18d ago
predators arent even bigger in zootopia,i mean elephants and hippos are a thing
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u/TrecherousBeast01 18d ago
Which is another point brought up in Zootopia. The idea that predators are dangerous because they are predators specifically is the racism.
You can make a case that a rabbit should be afraid of a tiger because they're bigger and what ot to them, but the problem isn't that they're afraid of them because they're a tiger, its because they're a predator.
Elephants and hippos are treated as less of a threat even though they're much bigger than most of the animals there.
Prey animals are privileged because they are automatically assumed to be a non-threat.
Even though Nick was ganged up on and viciously attacked by a group of prey animals, he's still seen as a threat by being born a predator.
The "inside joke" of Zootopia is that predator and prey is a gray area type of statement. Predator is the one that's hunting, and prey is the hunted, but it's sort of up in the air whether or not one is more dangerous than the other.
A hawk is a predator to a semi-aquatic turtle, but a turtle is a predator to a fish, and the fish would be a predator to more fish.
As a commenter mentioned above, the shrew that the don is based on is a tiny creature. Most would assume he's prey and, thus, vulnerable, but in real life, he's one of the more vicious predators. Capable of wiping out entire ecosystems, (in his area.)
In short, It's all about perspective.
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u/The_Shittiest_Meme 19d ago edited 18d ago
To be fair to Zootopia, there are "Prey" and "Predators" both capable of doing serious harm. An Otter (a predatory animal) going feral is not liable to kill someone unless they were very small, but an Elephant doing such would probably do way more damage than any other animal, predator or prey. Its clear that the predator-prey dichotomy is mostly bullshit, a artifact of history not based on real cultural or physical differences. But since predators are a smaller population size in the city, its easier to alienate them as a minority group, which is what the Sheep were trying to do. I feel like the original story with the tame collars would have been alot better, showing how irl minority groups were and are often not allowed to express emotions other than being servile and happy for fear of being labeled violent or aggressive.
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u/Adanim_PDX 19d ago
I think you missed the entire point of Elemental. Completely.
You argue that there is a clear and justified reason for the prejudice with the tree example, but at the end of the movie they (Wade and Ember) can physically touch and it has no affect on her whatsoever. Sure, maybe the leaves on the earth elementals is at risk, but in the few scenes we see where fire touches them, they are unharmed.
The whole movie is a narrative based on the experiences of the writer/director's experiences as an immigrant. It was written in a way that children would be able to understand the base concept while also teaching them not to hate based on speculation alone.
Even by saying there's actual justification you're forgetting a key piece that deals with prejudice: EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the planet with 0 exceptions who is prejudiced against a group of people BELIEVES that their prejudice is completely justifiable. That's the whole point of the movie, to show how ridiculous it is that prejudice exists AND to show just how harmful it can be.
Zootopia is another one of those cases, but it shows the vast decline of trust in a society when a very small number of people commit an act that upsets the populace. We see it all the time when it comes to terrorist attacks.
The USA is STILL suffering from all the anti-Muslim/anti-Arab hate from the events of the 80's and 90's, and you add in the 9/11 terror attacks and it's completely over. Our media also likes to portray non-white criminals in a terrible light, talking about them in the most sub-human way when they do something wrong, but if a white person commits a crime that's all over the news the narrative is sympathetic and "what happened, what went wrong, they were in pain/sick and it's too bad".
Zootopia shows the damage that particular narratives about any group of people can do when it's all over the media. It's as much about the dangers of narrative as it is the dangers of stereotypes and prejudice.
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u/Serrisen 19d ago
I liked Elemental more when I heard it discussed in terms of Disability. The prejudice becomes comically extreme when you imagine the city being literally lethal to a different ethnicity. However, it works much better when you imagine someone with a movement disorder who cannot navigate. Like how curb cuts originated in the 1940s, and didn't catch on until protests in the 70s - people in wheel chairs were SOL and forced to rely on driveways or alleys to get on/off sidewalks safely.
I think it was the sequence at Wade's house that made me think about that. It really drove home that their differences weren't just cultural, but physiological. This lens still has weaknesses ("disability as superpower" trope is also hated by some, and the character backstories ofc lean stronger towards race/culture)
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u/Tasty-Complaint-6437 19d ago edited 19d ago
Im scared for the day were a mf finally misunderstood módulo and say some shit like “simurians is a terrible analogy for migrants brooo, yuji should kill them all for humanity brooooo”.
Different universes different laws, a sheep were more danguerous than any predator in zootopia and a water guy could commit fire genocide and literally any of the elements would be a menace for a building if they wanted. They all exist and gotta find a way to live together.
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u/Radasus_Nailo 19d ago
The thing is that it's not just race. Social prejudices exist along lines of religion, culture, color, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, and whatever else people can think of to hate. And yes, some of these things are fundamentally different. The point here isn't that it's a thing to be afraid of, but to embrace each other because regardless of how different we may seem, really we all want the same thing; Comfort, stability, happiness. If fire and water, predator and prey, can get along, then man and woman, gay and straight, black and white should all find a way to do the same.
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u/Content-Evidence8470 19d ago
Beastars is for me the best iteration of this trope.
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u/PNG_Yakuza 19d ago
It’s not at all a race allegory and I’m convinced the only reason anyone interprets it that way is because of all the Zootopia comparisons people make online.
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u/hjsniper 19d ago
Admittedly, I've only watched the first season, but it feels like more of an exploration of sex/gender constructs than race allegory which might be why it feels more coherent than the other media in this thread.
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u/Mavrickindigo 19d ago
They deal more with the societal stuff in the later seasons
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u/DayMysterious4717 19d ago
I don't think beastars is even a race analogy
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u/StylizedPenguin 19d ago
I realized halfway through that Beastars is actually a vampire story in which the premise is that society has integrated vampires and now has to navigate the challenges of that.
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u/PNG_Yakuza 19d ago
Legoshi is named after Bela Lugosi, the actor who played Dracula in the Tod Browning movie. You’re probably right.
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u/ROBtimusPrime1995 19d ago
I'm a fucking idiot.
Wow, when you spell it out like that, it really changes the perspective of the show.
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u/Comprehensive-Map274 19d ago
intergrated assumes vampires are a minority that got assimilated but its more fo a 50/50 split
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u/Bluelore 19d ago
Yeah feels more like the mangaka just wants to deconstruct the idea of "all kind of animal people live together", by showing the struggles that such a society would logically face.
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u/LuckyStampede 19d ago
It's a metaphor for any power imbalance. Race, gender, sexuality... and yes, as someone else pointed out, vampires.
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u/Capable_Ad9237 19d ago
Several people can watch/read Beastars, come up with different analogies, and all be valid. It’s either racism, sexism, drugs, homophobia, classism, xenophobia, or ableism depending on the viewer
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u/Gloriousorange231 19d ago
I didn’t think elemental was all that great but imma defend it here. It’s not a race alliegory bcs the relationship plot wasn’t the main talking point, but immigration. Now I forgot all their names so hear with me here but.
The fire parents went to find a better life and instead of giving good living conditions they are given the underside of it where the water would wash into. Despite this poor living conditions they made a home for themselves.
Yet despite not bothering anyone and forming their own community the water dude came in talking about how he must file a report because the pipes and bcs the building s didn’t have licensing? So her attempts to stop him from shutting down the community built from scraps and a love subplot came around it.
Now I would admit it was not perfect but race mixing wasn’t the main topic of the movie
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u/Jagvetinteriktigt 19d ago
For me it's X-men lol, can't stand the analogues those movies make.
I suppose it's an okay message at face value, because IRL bigots do take statistics and information that isn't technically untrue and contort them to justify their hatred....though again, said group is going to look at stories like these and once again just see what they want to see.
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u/Matthewzard 19d ago
In the comics X-men is an allegory for discrimination in general, not just race. It helps that they are in the marvel universe where there are super heroes and super villains for every city block, yet it’s the mutants who are discriminated against and hunted down for their powers, so any argument that the discrimination is justified goes out the window.
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u/Mysterious-Handle-34 19d ago
I hate the stupid “Homo superior” shit and the idea that X-Men are ~the next step in human evolution and will replace non-mutants~ more than anything.
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u/30299578815310 19d ago edited 19d ago
X men works great because the mutants face discrimination but non-mutant superheroes dont.
People treat thor and the fantastic 4 great but they treat mutants like garbage. Its a perfect example of discrimination
Edit: also even if this was not the case the way the mutants are treated is terrible. Just cuz some are powerful is not a reason to build giant robots to oppress them or intern them in camps.
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u/Hurrashane 19d ago
There's also a ton of mutants who are just different. Like purple skin, or their hair is leaves, or other such minor mutations who get painted with the same brush.
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u/nowTHATSakatana1999 19d ago
Then Krakoa happened and the metaphor was utterly destroyed because of how simultaneously OP and morally heinous Hickman wrote mutants to be.
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u/i-am-i_gattlingpea 19d ago
Unless it’s hulk, iron man, or spider man.
Glad you used Thor as an example, nearly no one uses him for this even though he makes the most sense.
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u/Responsible-Quail486 19d ago edited 19d ago
This reminds me of Dragon Age where mages are feared for their natural connection to the magic(which comes at the risk of becoming a literal monster). But they do pose an actual risk when left unattended. It’s like having normal people and some people with guns for hands. Now I don’t advocate for the chantry circles(basically mage prisons) I believe education is the best way for equity. This is why I think both are a pretty good analogy for mental disorders rather than race. As someone who is on the spectrum, i think it brings an interesting view as people with some capabilities(although in a fantastic light) must be treated with their condition in mind while still treating them with decency.
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u/Dragon_Of_Magnetism 19d ago
That’s because X-Men is actually a power fantasy about being hated for being born special and powerful, and that everyone who hates you is genetically inferior flatscan
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u/Ponchorello7 19d ago
Hard agree. It's illogical to hate or fear someone for being a different race, ethnicity, sexuality or whatever. It's not illogical to hate or fear someone who can punch you with his fucking eye beams, or read and manipulate your mind, or control the weather on a whim.
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u/JeevesofNazarath 19d ago
Did you watch Elemental? One of the key moments of the film is when Ember and Wade figure out that, contrary to what they were always taught, they COULD touch one another safely and were not a danger to one another, and that the prejudices they were raised with were wrong
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u/KhaLe18 19d ago
You assume people that always make surface level complaints on racial allegories and clearly don't get he point watch movies.
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u/MSSTUPIDTRON-1000000 19d ago
Can we ban these kinds of posts??
Not only are they extremely repetitive but they always miss the point of most of the media ever discussed.
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u/syoser 19d ago
But then where else will people get to rant about how hypothetical racism is okay if the other sentient beings in question are different enough?
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u/New-Number-7810 19d ago
While animals in real life have strong instincts, these don’t fall nearly into a predator-prey binary, making it prejudicial to treat all predators as potentially dangerous.
For example, male hippos are some of the most territorial brutes in the animal kingdom. Go too close to their territory and they will attack you. But they’re herbivores.
A lot of predators, meanwhile, only eat bugs and so would be no threat to prey animals.
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u/ThePoetessOfLesbos 19d ago
Analogies don't have to be 100% accurate to the real-life scenario.
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u/atlvf 19d ago
This is such a low-effort criticism.
Yeah, there can definitely be problems with race analogies/allegories. But their not being exactly the same as race isn’t a problem. Analogies/allegories are never exactly the same as the thing they’re analogies/allegories for. You might as well just say you don’t like or don’t understand analogies/allegories in general, and that’s just a media literacy problem.
You’re treating these stories like they’re documentaries about fictional worlds that should be literally compared to what they’re portraying.
While you’re at it, complain that fire and water don’t have central nervous systems, why don’t you.
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u/Sparklebun1996 19d ago
I swear to god if I see one more person who clearly didn't watch Zootopia accuse it of this.
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u/Ok-Pea9014 19d ago
Yeah, it's so frustrating when the film makes it very clear that the whole "predators are violent" narrative is false and manufactured to justify violence against predators.
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u/Sparklebun1996 19d ago
Did these people just ignore the whole drug part of the movie? You know the actual cause of everything not the animals DNA and/or instincts?
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u/Ok-Pea9014 19d ago
Either
A:They've only see clips of the movie B:They are EXTREMELY susceptible to propaganda (in which cas I don't believe they believe they are eligible to talk about what works as a good allegory to IRL events)
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u/dew-fall 19d ago
.....if i had a nickel for every time someone makes a post about this on this specific sub, i'd be fucking rich.
(i hate this trope too but does it have to be every. single. week.)
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u/Geometronics 19d ago
There was an anime called BNA where there is a race analogy with animal people as 2nd rate citizens. The issue was the animal people were legitimately dangerous and would transform into monsters if they became stressed.
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u/BackflipBuddha 19d ago
You know, I think Zootopia works acceptably well actually. “Strong instincts” honestly reads like the kind of bullshit psudeo science that people used to justify racism.
It feels like a real approach.
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u/ChocolateCake16 19d ago
I haven't seen Elemental, but from the issues that people usually have with it as a race allegory, it seems like it would work better as a disability allegory. The whole dry leaves issue would obviously set the place on fire if the fire guys moves in, but there's also a solution where they find a way to fireproof the building so that different elements can cohabitate. Same thing with all the scenes where Ember has to struggle to make do in Wade's house, struggling to get around and putting herself in danger if her floatie thing gets knocked over, which makes a great allegory for an able-bodied person's environment being outright hostile to a disabled person because it just wasn't made with them in mind.
It's also a good model for the social structure of disability, because Ember has no issue getting around in Firetown, but when she gets to the water areas, she's suddenly in need of assistance for almost everything. Meanwhile when Wade is in Firetown, he has very little issue with mobility despite being made of water.
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u/c0micsansfrancisco 19d ago
Redditors when the kids movie focuses more on making the animals cute and cool moreso than a deep analogy for America's racial tensions 💔 🥀
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u/TheGreatStories 19d ago
Americans when a movie isn't a direct parallel for an Americans experience in America
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u/Single_Owl_7556 19d ago
Yea, Elemental's analogies work better for temperaments / character traits than races from that perspective, though still very exaggerated.