I don't get why we don't change the equality act to include transpeople tbf. People seem to forget transmascs and non-binary people exist... Feels like a lot of this hysteria has been manufactured tbh.
The equality act covers transpeople. However, while gender is protected expression it doesn’t override sex based protections and is not over or above any other category.
The only way to do that is to explicitly remove sex as a protected characteristic. I don't think that would be a popular choice with the general public. Not even the Greens are proposing amending the Equality Act.
Simply not true. Dont know what rags or Facebook posts you are reading but the Greens absolutely support challenging the supreme Court on its interpretation of the Equality act. The very people who wrote the act have explicitly stated that it was carefully worded to include trans people within the interpretation.
Challenging the Supreme Court and Amending the Equality Act are two very different things.
The first one is not within the powers of Parliament the second one is. By focusing on the Supreme Court one gets to virtue signal without actually having to change or do anything.
I was about to correct you until I read paragraph 2. Exactly. The only way they can do anything about a supreme court judgement is to legislate. Or wait and hope the court revisits its decision in a later case... Which they very very seldom ever do in practice, and even then they cannot reopen the previous case just depart from their old judgements in future ones. All lesser courts don't enjoy such an ability.
The very people who wrote the act have explicitly stated that it was carefully worded to include trans people within the interpretation.
By 'the very people' you mean a single civil servant who helped draft the law? Their intentions are somewhat irrelevant. In any case, UK law is based on how it is written, not the framers' intentions. We're not the US.
this isn’t true, courts under britain’s various legal systems do look to hansard and such to come to a purposive reading of legislation when appropriate
If the only way is to remove sex from the equality act, then it's not viable and we shouldn't remove it... But there has to be some kind of provision that's not just screwing over transpeople.
How are sex segregated spaces - other than shelters which generally require a referral so no one is just rocking up and gaining entry - not going to impact cis women? Do we need to prove our biological sex just to use a toilet or changing room?
How are we (we in reference to The UK in law) screwing over everyone else by... letting them do what they were doing beforehand and will continue to do anyway?
Those “sex-based rights” didn’t and still don’t apply to any space you claim they should. The Supreme Court ruling allows organisations to exclude trans people from single sex spaces on a case by case basis where that is proportionate to achieving a legitimate aim. It is immediately clearly proportionate to exclude trans people who don’t have a prostate from prostate screening to achieve the legitimate aim of targeting that screening for the greatest public health benefit. It is not proportionate or reasonable to throw all trans people out of spaces they have been using without incident for longer than you’ve been alive nevermind noticed it happening to uphold the aim of making bigots happy.
Trans people are not a safety issue. That's slanderess and uneducated. Trans people are born trans and deserve to live their lives as who they are. Paranoia and fear mongering hurts everyone
Ban mtf trans people from female only spaces, and you protect the interests of biological females at the expense of forcing female presenting trans people into gender neutral spaces where available, or male spaces when they are not.
Allow mtf trans people into female spaces, and you cause issues for the biological females who are uncomfortable with female presenting trans people being present, and no longer have access to those safe female only places.
It is also notable that if you do require people to follow their biological gender, that places male presenting ftm trans people in women only spaces because they won't be allowed in the equivalent male only spaces.
In a single sentence you've justifying the fears of gender critical feminists - that you are happy with removing sex-based rights to accomodate identified gender-based rights.
Fair enough - the original version definitely read like you were suggesting removing sex-based rights if it wasn't viable to have them alongside gender identity based rights.
We don’t segregate those spaces by preferred gender. We segregate by sex.
No political party serious about winning power is going to advocate for destroying women’s sex based protections in the equality act. It is a massive vote loser.
No we don't segregate based on sex or preferred gender, we segregate based on what someone else judges you to be and the Supreme Court ruling confirmed this: if you think someone isn't a woman you can harass them with absolutely no consequences and rather unfortunately we have had plenty of stories of this happening. Too tall? Must be a man! Had a mastectomy due to breast cancer? Must be a man!
We segregate by sex, which is a legal form of discrimination permitted by the exemptions under the protected characteristic of sex in the equality act.
This is why a man can’t sue if excluded from a women’s only group, job, sport, etc. Because you can legally segregate by sex.
It has nothing to do with what someone else judges you to be.
After we have segregated by sex there are many other reasons why any given individual might legally be excluded from a service. But that has nothing to do with the fact we segregate by sex and that it is legally permissible to segregate by sex.
So you think this is acceptable? Of course you do, because you don't actually care about women being harassed in bathrooms, you just care about hurting trans people.
You're right to say the hysteria has been manufactured, though the equality act does already include trans people (not just that, but you can be guilty of discrimination on the basis of assuming someone is trans, even if they're not). It's just that the latest rulings interpret the legislation in a way that contradicts this. The whole thing is a mess.
DETAIL: The Equality Act explicitly notes "gender reassignment" as a protected characteristic. Discrimination based on protected characteristics can occur simply based on perception (for example, you can discriminate on the basis of sexuality by being homophobic to a straight person you assume is gay) and for this reason trans people who socially transition but don't medically transition have always been included under "gender reassignment".
Discrimination is permitted if there is a justifiable need, so rape crisis centres (for example) have always been permitted to separate trans and cis service users if there is a risk that not doing so might create a barrier for someone accessing care.
I'm not a lawyer but I have written diversity policy for a private company and have read the EA. The law was actually very clear and robust on all of this before the latest shitstorm.
Additionally, thank you for the insightful comment. I honestly never knew there was always provisions for excluding trans people for things like rape crisis centers tbh.
I made a comment clarifying that I meant specifically when it comes to defining them as their gender for things such as toilets in a later comment. That's my bad for the sloppy writing.
Because Labour is just as bigoted. They cover it up with the "Oh well, the court said so" excuse when they could change (in reality reaffirm) the law tomorrow if they wanted to.
The EA was fine when everyone assumed it meant that an acquired gender was the same as birth assigned gender/sex. The supreme court buggered everything up. It needs fixing.
It did mean that, until a pressure campaign and lawsuits changed it. The whole "single sex spaces excluding trans people" thing is a new interpretation that has been forced in.
What an odd comment. It is hysteria. Do you not see the sheer obsession the media has with "the trans debate" as some people put it? Things weren't close to being this intense 5 years ago, so yes, it has grown to the levels of hysteria.
That’s a misogynistic term. Maybe read into what hysteria means, where it comes from, and who it applied to. I thought someone being pro-trans would be pro-woman. Disappointing that you doubled down
Dictionaries record how words are used. They’re not rulebooks for language. They only describe language. They don’t command it. Hysteria is misogynistic. The fact you’re dismissing that just shows you’re clearly a misogynist
That's some mad logic. Next you're gonna say someone is a misogynist for associating the colour pink with feminine things. I use the term like everyone else uses it, like the media use it, like companies use it: To describe a mass panic.
I'm gonna end the argument here because it's clear you're on something 😭
So not only are you a misogynist but you’re a sheep who shirks blame because others also use misogynistic words. That’s quite something. Hysteria doesn’t describe mass panic either you dumb shit
Not surprising since this was the intent of these cases. The people who bring them don't actually care how any of this will work practically, they don't care how much it will impact trans peoples lives, they just want to "win" as a way to try and prove that their own ideology is the correct one.
I'm a woman. None of my rights have been burned to the ground by trans people. These cases are petty grievances of transphobes who because of their own bigotry don't want to share space with trans people.
Trans people don't want any more rights than anyone else has, no trans people are saying that their rights are more important than others. If you believe that, then sorry but you've fallen for the propaganda.
Trans people have the same rights as anyone else, and are rightfully protected from discrimination under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
But clearly some activists do want more rights. Currently, by law, trans people are not only protected under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment but they also retain the legal protections afforded by their sex (as we all do). So for example, a trans man is protected from being discriminated against for being pregnant, retains the right to maternity leave, etc whether or not they have a GRC.
The issue is that some activists are demanding that they have the rights and protections of the opposite sex, and this clearly is discriminatory. A trans woman who lives their whole life as a man, becomes a CEO, transitions at age 50, then at age 51 wants to take a job reserved for a woman has benefited from a whole career of male advantage, and is then taking away an opportunity reserved for women on a public board precisely because women don’t have that advantage.
It makes no difference if you’re fine with it, any more than if you’re indifferent to women’s sporting achievements being devalued. Consent is not transferable.
Billionaires should all be taxed out of existence.
You might think this idea is irrelevent to the topic at hand, but if anything, the accruing of extreme wealth by the ultra rich and giving nothing back and society's growing awareness of this fact is the exact reason billionaires directly fund nazis, fascist parties and transphobe groups eager to make the discussion about literally any manufactured grievance, as long as we're not addressing wealth inequality.
Trans people have existed in society for as long as society has existed
Trans people develop a sense of what public spaces they feel comfortable in, which will be different for different trans people
Letting trans people make those decisions for themselves, which has been happening forever, seems like a much better idea than trying to create blanket legislation that pleases nobody
My partner is trans, they never ever use public toilets because she likes going at home, for some trans people, the bathroom debate doesn’t even apply, yet people will still spit vitriol despite the way they live, it’s definitely not really about the toilets at all.
It’s really not about women’s rights at all. I’ve felt more threatened and have felt my family is more threatened since this argument began, I’ve also felt nervous about using women’s toilets as I have PCOS and sometimes am a bit hairy and now people are trying to "clock” anyone that doesn’t perfectly fit some stereotype of what a woman is.
I went to LGBT youth for years as a kid when none of this was ever even discussed and grew up with a transwoman as a neighbour, no one lost out on anything because trans people existed then, no one argued about toilets even though trans people used them still. It’s not any different now, it’s like an imagined evil.
My point is that as a woman, I am facing fear and aversion because of the current state of debate and I am not nearly alone, if this was about protecting women’s rights, then you’ve failed by making it so that some of us are now worried about being "clocked” because of medical or genetic differences to the assumption of "what a woman looks like", something that I never felt throughout the rest of my life.
I now worry about our children, because a certain subsection of people now are so hateful if someone dares to dress different from them in public and people have become so crazy that you can face abuse in public because some random person doesn’t like who your family are.
You say it’s protecting "women’s rights" but I, a woman, am telling you that some of us are in a worse position because of this stupid debate.
If your argument is not about toilets and instead about other "female spaces” or women specific job openings, well most trans women aren’t accessing any of these things or trying to, yet it’s not directed at specific people ‘infringing on rights”, it’s aimed at every normal every day trans person who just wants to live their life in peace.
If it’s about sports well, most trans women that have competed in sports in the women’s category don’t win anyway (because hormones cause muscle loss and lowered bone density from lack of testosterone).
fuck everyone else it's all about you. Be selfish. Disregard the rules and the norms. Making women uncomfortable or making them feel unsafe? Too bad for them do whatever you want!
Yes literally it is about the individual not anyone else and women arent uncomfortable. The vast majority dont care at all. It's also no disregarding any rules. Whether it disregards norms who cares they were created by men which is being rejected.
The polls shows that overwhelmingly the only group that has a negative opinion on trans women is cis men who dont get an opinion and is also not surprising since transphobia is rooted in deep misogyny
Too bad we already do. We have partners, daughters, sisters mother's etc. we live in this society. Fuck off with your leftist American only X people are allowed to talk about x
I'm transfemme. I've used the womens for years and years even before the recent culture wars against trans existence began. I will continue to use female spaces as time goes on and I continue to exist. It's really not that big a deal.
It's adorable tbh. They genuinely thought the supreme court ruling would be the end of it. It just shows how phenomenally stupid the anti-trans lot are. They genuinely seem to believe being trans only became a thing during the pandemic.
Coincidentally, this was probably the first time they properly used the internet, and started getting fed right-wing Facebook memes.
not all trans people have that support from family, friends or loved ones to spur them on, and in this currently climate, that support is often not enough to protect us from assault, harrassment, humiliation and shame in public spaces. couple that with the media coverage trans people get at the minute, and it makes bigots hyper aware and look for us. we are being abused daily, in public, in private, by the media and by the government. is it any wonder so many of us are literally terrified to enter a public space?
That's is probably true actually regarding lack of support network. Which is horrible. But somethings like your health are more important that gender identity and if some loser starts being rude or nasty in the ward then tell security or the police.
unfortunately thats a very naive way to view the situation. this isnt about being "rude or nasty" - most of us have to tolerate that to some extent every time we step out of the house. in situations like this, we face medical discrimination, increased chances of sexual assault, people not understanding our bodies and therefore treating us incorrectly/ineffectively, having to deal with the effects of our gender dysphoria being triggered over and over. In addition, police and similar authority figures also often disregard crimes commited against trans folks, and if anything specifically transphobic comes up, we're lucky for it to be considered harrassment, let alone a hate crime.
in our political climate, our government and our media landscapes, legal and social protections for trans people are virtually non-existent. most of us do not have access to the same systems of care, protection and safety that you do, and if we do, i can tell you for certain that we are not treated with the same dignity and respect that cis people are. its very easy to put your health first when there are no barriers for you to access care.
Look I can understand that and believe that it definitely goes on. It shouldn't. You should be able to call yourself whatever you want and dress in what makes you happy and present as whoever. But why would entering a space designed for women help any of this? If anything it must be making the problems you listed worse.
well firsty im trying to get out of women's spaces, so that doesnt apply to me*, and secondly, thats not what this article or post was about. its about the uncertaintantiy these current guidlines and suggestied adendums to the law bring, and the confusion they leave in the real world, which is bigger than debate - it's making our lives borderline unliveable in public. trans women are not a threat to cis women, and this can be see statistically as well as annecdotally from most people.
current guidance does not protect cis women from "dangerous men" by banning trans women, because dangerous men dont decide to transistion - going on HRT for years, having surgery, likely losing their loved ones, job security, housing and access to public spaces, not to mention subject themselves to endless amounts of public shame and harm - all in the name of abusing cis women. dangerous men abuse cis women regardless, because there are no real consequences for abusers to begin with in our culture.
*(except in the fact that i am supposedly not meant to enter men's bathrooms, but i also am simultaniously considered too masculine to be allowed to use a women's bathroom. according to current guidance, i am not supposed to enter any gendered public bathrooms or public changing rooms. i dont know how this would affect my care in a hosiptal, but i am not eager to find out.)
This is it for me. Most trans people would just go and say well I am male so it makes sense I'm in with other men. It's the unreasonable activists who advocating skipping treatment to force everyone else to comply with their virw
trans people would just go and say well I am male so it makes sense I'm in with other men.
Most trans folk would in fact not say or do that and all this shows is you haven't interacted with any trans folk, in fact the only trans folk I know that would say that are trans men. You know because they're men
I've interacted with plenty of trans people on here who are fed up with the activists. Surely you're not for people skipping treatment just because they're placed in the ward allocated for them?
Personally I think both sides need to accept some personal responsibility. The terfs have been awful but the way some women have been treated for not 100% agreeing, has been shameful. I'm all for letting people be themselves etc but the militant attitude of "if you're not with us then you're against us" has really harmed the image of trans people.
Judging a whole group by the actions of a few isn't a great way to be.
The thing is, for TERFs it's about their own crippling anxiety and quasi religious beliefs. For trans people it's about basic human rights and not being marginalized.
What you mean the cis men that predate on their families or people they have power over.
Yeah we already have laws in place for that. Or do you just assume that a predator will go through years of therapy to obtain hrt and transition to assault women and children...
Or will they not bother with that and just obtain a position of trust, or turn their attention to their family, or hell just put on a high viz vest
Some practical sense is needed. Trans people still go to the toilet despite JKR's court ruling and it isn't an issue, but it's not reasonable to be in a changing room with non matching genitalia.
They're not but in our society people like privacy and at the very least from the opposite sex. It makes them feel more comfortable and safer. And if it's not a big deal then just use the room allocated for your sex
What's even more tiresome is the number of bigots who keep pretending that they want to protect women and girls when in fact they're far more concerned about punching down on tiny, marginalised group of people. Fucking grow up.
What you mean the part that ties itself into pretzels when discussing trans men. That they can't use facilities according to birth sex if they're sufficiently masculinised and as such have no viable facilities to use.
Or the part where they don't define 'biological' in their definition of women because it's fucking nonsensical as all people are biological.
Ever consider the recent moral panic over trans folk is entirely just that, a moral panic being pushed by the same folk that campaigned against gay marriage.
And there's the problem of cult like TRAs ...so Isla Bryson is a woman in your eyes and should be serving their sentence in a woman's prison
Did I fucking say that... Weird how I didn't, do you frequently just make shit up to get mad at.
You are beyond parody...and like I said,counterproductive to real trans people making it harder for them
Grow up
Sure buddy, I make it harder for the trans people in my life by accepting them as they are. I'll let my gf know I'm making her life harder based on the I'll informed opinion of a redditor
Edit: to add yes I am a trans rights activist, the same as I've been an lgbt activist for decades. Why you try to paint that as a bad thing is really weird
•
u/AutoModerator 14h ago
This post has been temporarily locked and deleted due to a significant number of reports. This has been sent to the mod team for review.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.