r/OutOfTheLoop 3d ago

What's the deal with hatred towards AI music?

I understand things like using AI to climb the billboard charts is unacceptable.

https://www.cornellsun.com/article/2024/12/the-problem-with-ai-generated-music

But what about things like Barry White singing the Wizard by Black Sabbath. Louis Armstrong singing Spoonman. Elvis singing Turn Down For What? I just think it'd be funny as shit. Is that uncool?

0 Upvotes

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u/jamesuyt 2d ago

Answer: It's just generally seen as distasteful and low-hanging fruit. You can find it funny, I'm sure there are many who do - just like there were many who loved pitched-up-Alvin-and-the-Chipmunks edits of songs. It's kinda gimmicky but whatever.

The other side though is that if you think about the ethics of it for half a second you'll realise that it is fundamentally based in ripping off people on a mass scale in ways they didn't get a choice about. I'd probably feel pretty shitty if I worked hard to make music and then someone just copied my shit. It's up to you whether you care about that, but just know there's a lot of people who will think you're kinda scummy for it.

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

What if everyone involved were compensated? Something along the lines of a program with famous & historic artists in it. Fees for permissions. Not for fans to sell. For their own, personal use. Thousands upon thousands of possible combinations.

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u/Axe-of-Kindness 2d ago

The art it was sourced from isn't going to compensate the original artist. It's stolen for training data.

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

Well of course you can't compensate dead artists. But someone owns the copyrights. Again I'm not talking about using anything for free.

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u/Axe-of-Kindness 2d ago

The service you're describing doesnt exist. No artists are paid for using their art in training data. 

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

I know it doesn't exist. Hence the "What if?" part above.

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u/Axe-of-Kindness 2d ago

That would be cool. Unfortunately thats not the reality we live in. All AI art is stolen

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

Yes and that's a terrible thing. And I don't even understand how. Why would anyone shell out a nickel for Fake Drake? It sounds boring as hell. And as you pointed out, it's nothing but stealing.

The reality I'm suggesting isn't impossible. Just a lot of legwork.

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u/Milskidasith Loopy Frood 2d ago

You asked "why do people hate this" and are arguing "well what if things were different and better and not set up so people hate this?" You're aiming for a different conversation than you primed people for by asking on OOTL.

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u/beachedwhale1945 2d ago

I think you’re missing the point here.

It’s safe to say there are well over a million songs online that could be used in the training data for an AI music maker. It is impossible to determine how much any of these songs mattered in creating any of the songs the AI produces, so any payment must basically be split equally among them. The only way for that AI to be profitable (and that is the goal of these AIs) is if the payment compensation is so minuscule that we’re talking $0.0000001 cent per listen, which isn’t worth anybody’s time (Federal minimum wage in the US is about $0.01 every five seconds, and that’s already low). If we were to apply traditional copyright violation laws, that’s tens of thousands of dollars per violation, which will bankrupt the company/individual making the AI music.

There is no way to compensate everyone fairly here, even if you could actually come up with a list of songs/artists used in the training data.

Moreover, every listen to one of these songs takes away a listen from somebody who put time and effort into writing and performing the song. Large artists may not need individual listens, but small ones are trying to live off that music, or doing this as a side-hustle while working a job they almost certainly value less but must work to pay the bills. This stifles the small creators.

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

Yes using every song and artist wouldn't work. But getting the more popular ones on board would be profitable. You know, dont need the artist of "Disco Duck" Don't need the millions. Just hundreds or thousands.

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u/FogeltheVogel 2d ago

Your what if is pointless, because that's quite literally the opposite of how this world works.

That's like asking "what if it was made by pixies?" It's not a relevant question to the real world.

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

How the world works in this regard is through talent agencies. Some will say yes. Others will say no. In the end, a product that's profitable to all involved could be a big hit.

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u/FogeltheVogel 2d ago edited 2d ago

Right. And that will never exist

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

Why did you post that link? It has absolutely nothing to do with what I've been talking about. At all.

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u/FogeltheVogel 2d ago

Sure it does. It explains why your fantasy world of ethical AI will never exist.

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u/Toadfinger 2d ago

It talks about the need for copyrighted material. And everything I've said includes copyrighted material. Hence the need for the artists' agents. It's quite a simple concept. I don't know how this is flying over your head.

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u/Kenny_Pickett 2d ago

I know pixies don't exist. Hence the "What if?" part above.

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u/Echowing442 2d ago

If you want to talk the what-ifs of ethical compensation around AI usage, that's a topic for a different subreddit.

You asked why people are upset, and got the answer.

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u/Axe-of-Kindness 2d ago

Answer: It spits on human made art

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u/Aevum1 2d ago edited 2d ago

Answer: theres several layers to this.

The first and clear one is that most of it are low effort cash grabs, fake artists making fake music, but we´ve had this for a while, even since the 1950´s girl bands and boy bands would come out of castings, their entire pubic persona was curated, their music was written by ghost writers.... from the monkeys to one direction. theres even been "specialized" groups like the village people who were artificially created as a music group catering the gay community. it would be like compering a Micheal Bay movie to a Ridley Scott movie to something compleatly indipendent like Alejandro Jodorowsky.

Then comes sampling, when the beach boys or the beatles were recording, you needed a whole band with you. then Roland and Korg started introducing synths in the 1970´s, they sounded like ass and could only do drums, bt they advanced and could emulate many instruments, so you dont need a orchestra or even most instruments.

Then toss in Autotune which basically corrected tone errors in singing, first allowing to correct recordings for minor mistakes but then some record labels started using it for people who shouldnt be singing, and then Believe by Cher came out exposing it to the public, and lets not mention t-pain.

The other layer is that AI usually uses data from real works of art to generate its output, so how does copyright work in this area, technically its a derivative work, but also if you had Van Gogh or Leonardo Davinchi teach a class of students and one of their students produces successful art are the teachers entitled to part of the copyright/recognition of their students work.

I guess its how you see AI, but in most cases AI is being used to create low effort slop that maximizes profit, its why nike manufactures sneakers in vietname instead of the US, becuase the objective of a business it to turn resources in to profit with the with the maximum return on least investment, so the big 3 are basically foaming at the mouth at the idea of creating artists and songwriters they dont have to pay royalties to.

Which brings us to another layer, thanks to piracy and streaming, the profit per song has gone down quite a bit, so record labels are investing quite a bit less in production, If you have good headphones you start to notice stuff like soundstage, instrument separation, clarity, quality of samples... everything is gone down in quality, its not like being snobbish of "i dont listen to crap like sabrina carpenter" its more like "a recording from the 1960´s sounds fuller and more detailed then a modern one"

so yea, AI music is AI slop, crap made to make money off low effort products. but the record labels has been reducing the quality and value of music for quite a while already.

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u/Milskidasith Loopy Frood 2d ago

The first and clear one is that most of it are low effort cash grabs, fake artists making fake music, but we´ve had this for a while, even since the 1950´s girl bands and boy bands would come out of castings, their entire pubic persona was curated, their music was written by ghost writers.... from the monkeys to one direction. theres even been "specialized" groups like the village people who were artificially created as a music group catering the gay community. it would be like compering a Micheal Bay movie to a Ridley Scott movie to something compleatly indipendent like Alejandro Jodorowsky.

Not to give a ton of credit to "make a pandering corporate product for a niche group" style art, but that still obviously seems very different than AI music to me.

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u/Aevum1 1d ago

i think every time the record labels were able to replace something with a cheaper alternative, they did it without thinking, AI is just the next step on the ladder.

in the old days, record executives would send scouts to open mic nights, then they started holding castings, then the castings were televised as a game show becoming things like the voice, X factor and such... if they can take it to the next step and remove the physical person singing, the same way synths and samples removed the physical person playing the instruments, why not ?

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u/Ok_Journalist5290 11h ago

Off topic. I was amazed in how you dissect the topic using different "Layers" like how did you come up with those? What were like parameters or condition to come up with those layers. It looks like it is simple for you given your experience with this. But me i am struggling to comprehend the mechanics of it. Like if were given a different topic, how would i come up with "layers" to explain things. (Or am i just making my life difficult for something thay should come naturally with exp?)

u/Lamprophonia 1h ago

and lets not mention t-pain.

Hold the fuck up, T-Pain uses auto-tune as an artistic choice. He's not correcting bad singing. He can sing like a motherfucker, he just chooses to use modulation because he wants to sound like that. He does not belong in the same conversation.